R3 engine

[Rob Dudley]

Yesterday I got to inspect an Avanti that was passed on through an inheritance. The original owner of the car wanted the best of all while living in southern California. He bought the car then through correspondence with Andy Granatelli he learned of the R3 options and bought an R3 engine ready to run less the alternator and starter. I never knew you could get the engine without the super charger but he had kept all the letters, price lists and receipts so there is no mistake that he bought the engine without the supercharger and installed it that way. I believe he wanted to keep the air conditioner because it is still in the car. It does now have a modern compressor. The original owner continued to make it his car, corresponding with Joe Granitelli about cams and ignition improvements. The question for the new owners is what to do with the car to keep the spirit that it was created in or move ahead with other possibilities. The original owner obviously knew what he had and loved it without worrying about other peoples opinions. The car itself is in nice condition and is mostly stock but the drive train is upgraded to work with that R3. The new owners are car people and will continue to respect the Avanti but what a great history!

I had never heard that you could buy the R3 without the supercharger but there it was on the price list from Granitelli's, the supercharger was $200.00 more than the $775 cost of the R3 engine. The engine has the R3 heads, the aluminum water manifold, intake and pullies and the R3 headers. I wonder if they have any left?  

I am not posting any pictures yet out of respect for their privacy. I gave them an Avanti magazine and encouraged them to join AOAI and look into the advertisers. I brought along an authenticity guide which they plan to purchase as the photos tell so much.

[1963r2]

Personally I would supercharger it and keep the a/c functional. By doing that you would have an R3 as it was intended ( supercharged) and the a/c as a nod to the previous owner.

The best of both worlds.

pb

Edited June 16, 2022 by 1963r2

[mfg]

Very interesting story...One never knows what will turn up next!

[silverstude]

Did you notice the chassis number of the car?

 

[Dwight FitzSimons]

On 6/12/2022 at 12:36 AM, Rob Dudley said:

 The engine has the R3 heads, the aluminum water manifold, intake and pullies and the R3 headers.

Note that the original R3 & R4 water manifolds are cast iron, not aluminum.  Lionel Stone made some out of aluminum and sold them for a while.  The idea here was to save weight, although the cast iron ones aren't very heavy.  The original pulleys are cast iron also.  Aftermarket ones have been made out of aluminum.

--Dwight

Edited June 17, 2022 by Dwight FitzSimons

[mfg]

On 6/17/2022 at 7:21 AM, Dwight FitzSimons said:

Note that the original R3 & R4 water manifolds are cast iron, not aluminum.  Lionel Stone made some out of aluminum and sold them for a while.  The idea here was to save weight, although the cast iron ones aren't very heavy.  The original pulleys are cast iron also.  Aftermarket ones have been made out of aluminum.

--Dwight

I run an aluminum water pump pulley on my R2...Happily there's a considerable weight difference between that and the factory cast iron pulley....

I think the lighter aluminum pulley takes a bit of stress off the water pump bearings.

Edited June 21, 2022 by mfg

[VtMike]

I don't get this one.  And I think John Lennon may have said:  Most Peculiar, Momma.

I understand the importance of A/C to someone living in SoCal.  I also understand that, back in the day, A/C was not available in a supercharged Avanti.  But I would not have expected Andy G to recommend an r3 engine w/o its supercharger in this circumstance.  Instead, I would have expected Andy to recommend an r4 engine.  Wouldn't an r3 engine w/o S/C have lower compression and one less carb than an r4, and substantially less HP than an r4?

Is it possible that r3 engines were available at the time but r4 engines weren't?  Even if that were the case, if he had the parts, it would have been easy-peasy for Andy to swap out the heads and intake manifold, and turn an r3 into an r4?  Maybe I am missing something (as usual)?

I think it is crying shame that the Avanti in question doesn't have its supercharger.  It seems there are a good many supercharged Avantis that have a modern A/C system in them these days, and I think that is the route folks ought to go.

  

[Gunslinger]

R4 engines were not very streetable...radical camshaft and overcarbureted for anything but wide-open driving.  While a/c may have been available for a R4 if any had been ordered...it probably wouldn't have been very a/c friendly in a practical sense.  What dd they have...12:1 compression?  Racing gas would have been required to keep detonation at bay and adding the load of a/c would only make it worse.  

[Dwight FitzSimons]

4 hours ago, VtMike said:

I don't get this one.  And I think John Lennon may have said:  Most Peculiar, Momma.

I understand the importance of A/C to someone living in SoCal.  I also understand that, back in the day, A/C was not available in a supercharged Avanti.  But I would not have expected Andy G to recommend an r3 engine w/o its supercharger in this circumstance.  Instead, I would have expected Andy to recommend an r4 engine.  Wouldn't an r3 engine w/o S/C have lower compression and one less carb than an r4, and substantially less HP than an r4?

Is it possible that r3 engines were available at the time but r4 engines weren't?  Even if that were the case, if he had the parts, it would have been easy-peasy for Andy to swap out the heads and intake manifold, and turn an r3 into an r4?  Maybe I am missing something (as usual)?

I think it is crying shame that the Avanti in question doesn't have its supercharger.  It seems there are a good many supercharged Avantis that have a modern A/C system in them these days, and I think that is the route folks ought to go.

  

I agree with gunslinger, plus:

There was a '63 Avanti with a crate R4 engine near me back in the late 1960s.  I followed the car through 2 or 3 owners, probably NONE of which understood the implications of a 12:1 C.R.; i.e., necessity for using racing gas.  Who is going to do that in a street-driven car?  Having 12:1 compression ratio on a street-driven car is a very bad idea.  Plus, the R4 is very over carbureted.  The cam would have been either 276 or 288 deg. same as an R3.  An R3, with its 9.75 C.R., would have been a much better choice than an R4.  Simply remove the carb enclosure and install an R1 air cleaner.  (also dist. advance, carb jets, etc would need to be revised, but those aren't big deals)

BTW, the R4 Avanti locally ended up with two badly damaged cylinders, and most if not all broken rings.

Perhaps R3 engines WERE available and an R4 wasn't.  There were a hundred or so R3 engines built, but only something like 10 R4 engines.

Note that R3s and R4s used the same cylinder heads (479).  The difference in the comp. ratio was in the pistons, not the heads.

[pantera928]

Was the car that set the speed records at Bonneville an R2 or R3?

[Dwight FitzSimons]

7 hours ago, pantera928 said:

Was the car that set the speed records at Bonneville an R2 or R3?

Both, I think, set records at Bonneville.

--Dwight

[VtMike]

In August 1962, the records were set by prototype Avantis that were Granatelli-built racing machines with the 299 cu. in. "r3" prototype engines.  I understand that those engines were hand built by the Granatellis with extensively ported r2 heads and urban legend suggests they had a Windfield and not a Stude cam.  The 299 r3  prototype engines were in prototype Avantis but not any of the factory produced r3 Avantis.  World's Fastest Production Car?  Please . . .  

I don't know if there were any r2 Avantis at Bonneville in 1962. 

But, in September 1963, they took something like 10 Studebakers at Bonneville, including 6 cyl. Larks, 8 cyl Larks, Hawks, and r2 & r3 Avantis.  Avanti # 9 was said to be powered by the 304.5 cu. in. r3 engine that powered the factory built 9 r3  Avantis.  If that is true, then it was a lot closer to a production Avanti than those in 1962. 

 

 

[Rob Dudley]

If it hadn't been for the invoices and pricelists that they had I would have figured the supercharger had just been removed and tossed aside at some point but the documentation is there. Another interesting Studebaker story.  I believe they are leaning toward getting the supercharger setup and moving the compressor to have both. 

Rob

[Rebel Grey]

hello Rob and All,

I think I bought that car from the inheritance estate of the gentleman who owned the car from original and originally purchased the car as an R1 from a dealership in Santa Monica, Ca. while he was stationed in California while in the Air Force..  I have the original documentation of the purchase of the R3 crate engine less the Alternator and starter.  Even the shipping order. And indeed, the crate engine was ordered without the Supercharger from the Granatelli Bros.  (It was ordered and delivered in 1967 and all information and correspondence seems to support the R3 was never installed until about 1990).  A less aggressive Cam was supplied or reground by Isky from what I can tell from the old correspondence.  Long story,  I heard about the car while I was working Fly in, Fly Out doing project management on a remote mine site in Australia.  I  ended up flying out and buying it in White Feather, Idaho. and had to get it transported to Georgia.

The car moving company broke the key off in the ignition while backing it out of the car carrier and while trying to get the broken key out shorted out half the electrics for the gauges under the dash. 

The original DIY A/C mounting bracket on the R3 engine was a little bit lacking in robustness and I took it off because it was basically broken and non-functional.

I was a novice in regards to the unique differences between the R1, R2, R3 and R4 set ups.   I have also been continuously reminded by the rareness of parts.  Obviously there was never a stock R3 with supercharger and A/C.  Although, I keep hearing about someone's cousin twice removed that has successfully done it but I have been unsuccessful in locating said cousin.  But I can never locate that mythical person or company who has built or will build a mounting bracket for a supercharger and pully set up. to mount an A/C and Supercharger to an R3 that never had a Supercharger  that replaced an R1.

I came across this thread while trying to research a source of parts or providers of advice.  I have also been kind of surprised by the rather sarcastic rudeness of some of the "experts".  When I call inquiring about the availability of R3 specific parts from some of the suppliers, I am inevitably laughed at and told that I do not have an R3 engine or do not know the difference. (I won't mention names but I'm surprised that their attitudes towards customers allow them to stay in business).  18 months ago, that was probably true when I first got the car, however the learning curve has been steep.  When I provide block and casting numbers as well as the original order sheet- silence ensues, but never an apology for initially (in one very memorable discussion), acting like a jerk.  Nor do I seem to get anything useful in regards to information.  

I am guilty of looking at the R3 as a real mythical item of history in a way and would love to pit it together in its glory with a supercharger set up but fabricating the required parts from scratch is beyond my ability. I am at a point where I have to make a decision to just on sell the car or selling off the engine. and maybe go with an aftermarket LS engine which seems to be a relatively popular swap.  Frustratingly, I get plenty of interest in buying the R3 engine once it is established it is a real R3 and less than 10,000 miles on it.

I came across this thread by accident and notice that it is relatively recent -2022.  

Larry S.

[DWR46]

Larry: Please check your PM (messages).