R3 engine

[Rob Dudley]

Yesterday I got to inspect an Avanti that was passed on through an inheritance. The original owner of the car wanted the best of all while living in southern California. He bought the car then through correspondence with Andy Granatelli he learned of the R3 options and bought an R3 engine ready to run less the alternator and starter. I never knew you could get the engine without the super charger but he had kept all the letters, price lists and receipts so there is no mistake that he bought the engine without the supercharger and installed it that way. I believe he wanted to keep the air conditioner because it is still in the car. It does now have a modern compressor. The original owner continued to make it his car, corresponding with Joe Granitelli about cams and ignition improvements. The question for the new owners is what to do with the car to keep the spirit that it was created in or move ahead with other possibilities. The original owner obviously knew what he had and loved it without worrying about other peoples opinions. The car itself is in nice condition and is mostly stock but the drive train is upgraded to work with that R3. The new owners are car people and will continue to respect the Avanti but what a great history!

I had never heard that you could buy the R3 without the supercharger but there it was on the price list from Granitelli's, the supercharger was $200.00 more than the $775 cost of the R3 engine. The engine has the R3 heads, the aluminum water manifold, intake and pullies and the R3 headers. I wonder if they have any left?  

I am not posting any pictures yet out of respect for their privacy. I gave them an Avanti magazine and encouraged them to join AOAI and look into the advertisers. I brought along an authenticity guide which they plan to purchase as the photos tell so much.

[1963r2]

Personally I would supercharger it and keep the a/c functional. By doing that you would have an R3 as it was intended ( supercharged) and the a/c as a nod to the previous owner.

The best of both worlds.

pb

Edited June 16, 2022 by 1963r2

[mfg]

Very interesting story...One never knows what will turn up next!

[silverstude]

Did you notice the chassis number of the car?

 

[Dwight FitzSimons]

On 6/12/2022 at 12:36 AM, Rob Dudley said:

 The engine has the R3 heads, the aluminum water manifold, intake and pullies and the R3 headers.

Note that the original R3 & R4 water manifolds are cast iron, not aluminum.  Lionel Stone made some out of aluminum and sold them for a while.  The idea here was to save weight, although the cast iron ones aren't very heavy.  The original pulleys are cast iron also.  Aftermarket ones have been made out of aluminum.

--Dwight

Edited June 17, 2022 by Dwight FitzSimons

[mfg]

On 6/17/2022 at 7:21 AM, Dwight FitzSimons said:

Note that the original R3 & R4 water manifolds are cast iron, not aluminum.  Lionel Stone made some out of aluminum and sold them for a while.  The idea here was to save weight, although the cast iron ones aren't very heavy.  The original pulleys are cast iron also.  Aftermarket ones have been made out of aluminum.

--Dwight

I run an aluminum water pump pulley on my R2...Happily there's a considerable weight difference between that and the factory cast iron pulley....

I think the lighter aluminum pulley takes a bit of stress off the water pump bearings.

Edited June 21, 2022 by mfg

[VtMike]

I don't get this one.  And I think John Lennon may have said:  Most Peculiar, Momma.

I understand the importance of A/C to someone living in SoCal.  I also understand that, back in the day, A/C was not available in a supercharged Avanti.  But I would not have expected Andy G to recommend an r3 engine w/o its supercharger in this circumstance.  Instead, I would have expected Andy to recommend an r4 engine.  Wouldn't an r3 engine w/o S/C have lower compression and one less carb than an r4, and substantially less HP than an r4?

Is it possible that r3 engines were available at the time but r4 engines weren't?  Even if that were the case, if he had the parts, it would have been easy-peasy for Andy to swap out the heads and intake manifold, and turn an r3 into an r4?  Maybe I am missing something (as usual)?

I think it is crying shame that the Avanti in question doesn't have its supercharger.  It seems there are a good many supercharged Avantis that have a modern A/C system in them these days, and I think that is the route folks ought to go.

  

[Gunslinger]

R4 engines were not very streetable...radical camshaft and overcarbureted for anything but wide-open driving.  While a/c may have been available for a R4 if any had been ordered...it probably wouldn't have been very a/c friendly in a practical sense.  What dd they have...12:1 compression?  Racing gas would have been required to keep detonation at bay and adding the load of a/c would only make it worse.  

[Dwight FitzSimons]

4 hours ago, VtMike said:

I don't get this one.  And I think John Lennon may have said:  Most Peculiar, Momma.

I understand the importance of A/C to someone living in SoCal.  I also understand that, back in the day, A/C was not available in a supercharged Avanti.  But I would not have expected Andy G to recommend an r3 engine w/o its supercharger in this circumstance.  Instead, I would have expected Andy to recommend an r4 engine.  Wouldn't an r3 engine w/o S/C have lower compression and one less carb than an r4, and substantially less HP than an r4?

Is it possible that r3 engines were available at the time but r4 engines weren't?  Even if that were the case, if he had the parts, it would have been easy-peasy for Andy to swap out the heads and intake manifold, and turn an r3 into an r4?  Maybe I am missing something (as usual)?

I think it is crying shame that the Avanti in question doesn't have its supercharger.  It seems there are a good many supercharged Avantis that have a modern A/C system in them these days, and I think that is the route folks ought to go.

  

I agree with gunslinger, plus:

There was a '63 Avanti with a crate R4 engine near me back in the late 1960s.  I followed the car through 2 or 3 owners, probably NONE of which understood the implications of a 12:1 C.R.; i.e., necessity for using racing gas.  Who is going to do that in a street-driven car?  Having 12:1 compression ratio on a street-driven car is a very bad idea.  Plus, the R4 is very over carbureted.  The cam would have been either 276 or 288 deg. same as an R3.  An R3, with its 9.75 C.R., would have been a much better choice than an R4.  Simply remove the carb enclosure and install an R1 air cleaner.  (also dist. advance, carb jets, etc would need to be revised, but those aren't big deals)

BTW, the R4 Avanti locally ended up with two badly damaged cylinders, and most if not all broken rings.

Perhaps R3 engines WERE available and an R4 wasn't.  There were a hundred or so R3 engines built, but only something like 10 R4 engines.

Note that R3s and R4s used the same cylinder heads (479).  The difference in the comp. ratio was in the pistons, not the heads.

[pantera928]

Was the car that set the speed records at Bonneville an R2 or R3?

[Dwight FitzSimons]

7 hours ago, pantera928 said:

Was the car that set the speed records at Bonneville an R2 or R3?

Both, I think, set records at Bonneville.

--Dwight

[VtMike]

In August 1962, the records were set by prototype Avantis that were Granatelli-built racing machines with the 299 cu. in. "r3" prototype engines.  I understand that those engines were hand built by the Granatellis with extensively ported r2 heads and urban legend suggests they had a Windfield and not a Stude cam.  The 299 r3  prototype engines were in prototype Avantis but not any of the factory produced r3 Avantis.  World's Fastest Production Car?  Please . . .  

I don't know if there were any r2 Avantis at Bonneville in 1962. 

But, in September 1963, they took something like 10 Studebakers at Bonneville, including 6 cyl. Larks, 8 cyl Larks, Hawks, and r2 & r3 Avantis.  Avanti # 9 was said to be powered by the 304.5 cu. in. r3 engine that powered the factory built 9 r3  Avantis.  If that is true, then it was a lot closer to a production Avanti than those in 1962. 

 

 

[Rob Dudley]

If it hadn't been for the invoices and pricelists that they had I would have figured the supercharger had just been removed and tossed aside at some point but the documentation is there. Another interesting Studebaker story.  I believe they are leaning toward getting the supercharger setup and moving the compressor to have both. 

Rob