R2 and R3 Engines?

[Dunkin]

Any difference between the 2 superchargers, and are they both orange? Thanks

[mfg]

I believe the Paxton Superchargers were exactly the same, with a Hi-Output pulley setup offered as a factory option for the R3.

The color is a bit trickier....Most folks say supercharged Avantis left the factory with black painted blowers....if the supercharger was sent back to Paxton for a rebuild, it was usually returned painted something similar to 'Chevy Engine Orange, however on the R3's, the blowers left the factory painted a somewhat deeper 'red' color.

Brad Bez would have exact info on this.

[Dunkin]

Thank you for response.

[Avanti1963!]

I believe that mfg has it backwards. 

Most people believe that the R2 superchargers were orange when new.   When rebuilt by Paxton, they were usually painted black.  Along with the black paint, some had a little tag indicating it was rebuilt.

  

[Dwight FitzSimons]

23 hours ago, Avanti1963! said:

I believe that mfg has it backwards. 

Most people believe that the R2 superchargers were orange when new.   When rebuilt by Paxton, they were usually painted black.  Along with the black paint, some had a little tag indicating it was rebuilt.

  

Ditto re the orange and black ones.  I've never seen a red 1963-4 Paxton supercharger, even on an R3.

--Dwight

[plwindish]

I've seen a lot more orange superchargers on Avantis than black ones.  I also have no idea whether they were rebuilt or not.  Back in the day, around 1964 or '65, an Avanti drove through my little town and it sure sounded like it needed a supercharger rebuild.  It was growling and winding, sounding like a half broken siren, raising and lowering as the engine revved up or down.

[mfg]

On 3/2/2022 at 7:50 PM, Avanti1963! said:

I believe that mfg has it backwards. 

Most people believe that the R2 superchargers were orange when new.   When rebuilt by Paxton, they were usually painted black.  Along with the black paint, some had a little tag indicating it was rebuilt.

  

Sorry no,...supercharged Studebaker Avantis left the factory with 'black' Paxton superchargers.....Check the photos of the authentic restoration of the first production Avanti, 63R1001 for confirmation of this point.

[mfg]

On 3/3/2022 at 7:40 PM, Dwight FitzSimons said:

Ditto re the orange and black ones.  I've never seen a red 1963-4 Paxton supercharger, even on an R3.

--Dwight

Hopefully Brad Bez will chime in here....I believe he mentioned that Studebaker Avanti R3 engines originally used a Paxton supercharger color which was more 'reddish' than the typical orange color we see on Paxton 'rebuilt' superchargers....if I'm incorrect here I apologize.

(R3 long blocks originally being painted red might have something to do with this?)

Edited March 5, 2022 by mfg

[mfg]

I would also add...a Paxton supercharger, as seen in a Studebaker Avanti engine compartment, is much more noticeable and 'eyeball appealing' when painted orange....I believe that's why, in restoration, even folks that understand these superchargers were originally painted black decide to use the orange color..... I know I did!!!!!

[Avanti1963!]

I suppose I will be more direct so we don't provide the wrong information for future restorations and state that, I have owned many Avantis over the years and have seen hundreds since the 1960s.  99.8% of them were orange.  The few black exceptions had a "rebuilt" tag wired to them from Paxton.  Of course, nothing is absolute and there may be exceptions where an original Avanti buyer requested a black supercharger as special order or maybe a few of the initial cars had black, but in general, the superchargers came in orange from the factory.  I should add that R2 Larks and Hawks also had orange superchargers when factory new.  

[mfg]

Just now, Avanti1963! said:

I suppose I will be more direct so we don't provide the wrong information for future restorations and state that, I have owned many Avantis over the years and have seen hundreds since the 1960s.  99.8% of them were orange.  The few black exceptions had a "rebuilt" tag wired to them from Paxton.  Of course, nothing is absolute and there may be exceptions where an original Avanti buyer requested a black supercharger as special order or maybe a few of the initial cars had black, but in general, the superchargers came in orange from the factory.  I should add that R2 Larks and Hawks also had orange superchargers when factory new.  

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, however I disagree with it....You may want to obtain the Studebaker Avanti authenticity manual for the definitive answer.

[mfg]

It's important to remember the Paxton superchargers used on the Avanti were (and still are) not the most robust component on the car!

Many of the planetary drives in these units failed while Avantis were under the 12,000 mile warranty, or shortly thereafter from abuse by 'leadfoot' drivers, or owners who neglected checking the fluid.

These warranty Paxton superchargers (or ones purchased new over the counter) were painted orange.

That isn't to say a supercharger that required only minor repairs may have been returned to its owner still painted the factory black, not needing refinishing by Paxton.

[Leo B]

I have 1. Motor Trend July 1962; 1963 Road Test Studebaker Avanti R2 2. Motor Trend August; 1963 Granatelli's R3 and Standard Test.

In both issues looks like both Avantis have Black Paxton. Photos are B/W but still very sure about color. Here you see photos.
Note that R2 is very early one. You see this also from magazine cover. I think you know more about production ones.
 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Leo B

[regnalbob]

4 hours ago, mfg said:

Sorry no,...supercharged Studebaker Avantis left the factory with 'black' Paxton superchargers.....Check the photos of the authentic restoration of the first production Avanti, 63R1001 for confirmation of this point.

Sorry, not all superchargers were painted black.

My Avanti (2809) is painted orange from the factory. I have owned it for 57 years and the supercharger was never rebuilt.

My late brother's (5461) was painted orange. I was present when it was delivered to the family dealership.

 

 

 

[Avanti1963!]

Leo B, the pictures your provided do not represent the factory produced cars.  As mentioned, early prototypes and maybe 1001 had a black supercharger but 99% of them were orange.   These cars don't represent how the factory produced cars left the factory.  As evidence, the lower picture above has a McCulloch emblem on the supercharger which wasn't on the factory produced cars.  Further, the air cleaner wasn't the black wriggled finish as shown in that same picture.  The prototypes and a few early cars may have had black superchargers but the factory produced cars were orange. 

If the authenticity manual states they were all black, it is wrong.  There have been a few other items in the manual that have since been determined to be incorrect as well.  Aside from this, the vast majority of the manual is correct and is still a great source to have on the shelf.    

[Leo B]

14 minutes ago, Avanti1963! said:

Leo B, the pictures your provided do not represent the factory produced cars.  As mentioned, early prototypes and maybe 1001 had a black supercharger but 99% of them were orange.   These cars don't represent how the factory produced cars left the factory.  As evidence, the lower picture above has a McCulloch emblem on the supercharger which wasn't on the factory produced cars.  Further, the air cleaner wasn't the black wriggled finish as shown in that same picture.  The prototypes and a few early cars may have had black superchargers but the factory produced cars were orange. 

If the authenticity manual states they were all black, it is wrong.  There have been a few other items in the manual that have since been determined to be incorrect as well.  Aside from this, the vast majority of the manual is correct and is still a great source to have on the shelf.    

Yes. The engines in the pictures are very early and do not show production engines. Interesting publications still. I have restored one Laverda 750S and one Motoguzzi 750S3 etc etc. It was very difficult to know what was right. I learned from the Italian and British motorcycles that everything was evolution, not a one-year model with one fact as it seems to be today.

[mfg]

50 minutes ago, regnalbob said:

Sorry, not all superchargers were painted black.

My Avanti (2809) is painted orange from the factory. I have owned it for 57 years and the supercharger was never rebuilt.

My late brother's (5461) was painted orange. I was present when it was delivered to the family dealership.

 

 

 

Hello Bob, if you've owned your 1963 Avanti (63R2809) for 57 years, that means you purchased it in 1965, and you have no way of knowing if your Avanti had supercharger issues during its first 24 months of life...........

As far as being present when your late brother's 1964 Avanti was purchased....I do not doubt you were there, but there are dedicated Studebaker fans out there that 'remember' they saw '56 Golden Hawks with "factory" 374 CI dual four barrel Packard engines too!....(Pictures would be helpful though)

[mfg]

4 hours ago, Avanti1963! said:

Leo B, the pictures your provided do not represent the factory produced cars.  As mentioned, early prototypes and maybe 1001 had a black supercharger but 99% of them were orange.   These cars don't represent how the factory produced cars left the factory.  As evidence, the lower picture above has a McCulloch emblem on the supercharger which wasn't on the factory produced cars.  Further, the air cleaner wasn't the black wriggled finish as shown in that same picture.  The prototypes and a few early cars may have had black superchargers but the factory produced cars were orange. 

If the authenticity manual states they were all black, it is wrong.  There have been a few other items in the manual that have since been determined to be incorrect as well.  Aside from this, the vast majority of the manual is correct and is still a great source to have on the shelf.    

Well, more power to you Avanti 1963!

Edited March 5, 2022 by mfg

[mfg]

On 2/27/2022 at 6:33 PM, Dunkin said:

Any difference between the 2 superchargers, and are they both orange? Thanks

Now Dunkin.......LOOK AT THE TROUBLE YOU HAVE CAUSED !

[regnalbob]

27 minutes ago, mfg said:

Hello Bob, if you've owned your 1963 Avanti (63R2809) for 57 years, that means you purchased it in 1965, and you have no way of knowing if your Avanti had supercharger issues during its first 24 months of life...........

As far as being present when your late brother's 1964 Avanti was purchased....I do not doubt you were there, but there are dedicated Studebaker fans out there that 'remember' they saw '56 Golden Hawks with "factory" 374 CI dual four barrel Packard engines too!....(Pictures would be helpful though)

Yes, I do know the history for the first 24 months and the supercharger was not rebuilt.

Yes, my Brother's Avanti did have an orange supercharger from the factory.

Yes, not all superchargers were black from the factory.

 

 

 

[psdenno]

23 minutes ago, regnalbob said:

Yes, I do know the history for the first 24 months and the supercharger was not rebuilt.

Yes, my Brother's Avanti did have an orange supercharger from the factory.

Yes, not all superchargers were black from the factory.

Nicely stated.

[Leo B]

Hmmm ... Those ones which were Black color and afterwards painted Orange, should there be black paint seen under orange? I suspect that such a big job would have been done that the old color would have been completely removed before new paint🤔

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Leo B

[Gunslinger]

Now…Carroll Shelby used SN-60 superchargers on some of his GT-350 Mustangs.  They even had Paxton stickers saying they were a division of Studebaker Corporation.  What color were those painted?  I’ve seen then on Shelby cars left natural metal and Ford blue as well as orange.  There may not be a standard color…whatever paint was available when made.  Those Ford blue may have been painted by Shelby American.

[64studeavanti]

6 hours ago, mfg said:

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, however I disagree with it....You may want to obtain the Studebaker Avanti authenticity manual for the definitive answer.

FWIW, the authenticity manual states "With the exception of a few very early cars, the factory original units were painted orange ...", "around serial number R5200, they went back to installing as purchased again painted black". "Both black and orange are considered correct and authentic". Page C-106.

[mfg]

39 minutes ago, 64studeavanti said:

FWIW, the authenticity manual states "With the exception of a few very early cars, the factory original units were painted orange ...", "around serial number R5200, they went back to installing as purchased again painted black". "Both black and orange are considered correct and authentic". Page C-106.

And that's....THE REST OF THE STORY !!!