Engineless Avanti!

[mfg]

Which of the following 'production line' R3 Studebaker Avantis had its engine removed when new, had the engine shifted around between four or five different owners, then re-united with this same Avanti several years later?

1) R5237.....2) R5394.....3) R5532.....or......4) R5593

[mfg]

No 'hits' here?

HINT.....When Ed Reynolds owned the engine for this Avanti, it was installed in a '64 Studebaker Daytona Convertible!

[studegary]

Asa Hall had an R3 that was in a Hawk when he bought it.  He stored it many years.  It was finally reunited with its original home, an Avanti.  I do not know the number or if this is the one that you are referring to.  

[mfg]

14 hours ago, studegary said:

Asa Hall had an R3 that was in a Hawk when he bought it.  He stored it many years.  It was finally reunited with its original home, an Avanti.  I do not know the number or if this is the one that you are referring to.  

Although the R3 engine which came in one of the four production R3 Avantis listed above had a few different 'homes', as far as I know Asa Hall never owned it, and it was never installed into a Hawk.

Any other thoughts on which production R3 Avanti we're looking for here??

[pantera928]

r5394

[Nelson]

I guess I should know this as it was/is my car. R5593. Originally delivered to Leepers Studebaker. Gray, black interior, automatic, 4.09 axle, tilt wheel and am/fm as delivered. The am/fm not on the PO. However the car had 700 miles on it when delivered so probably was used in SB for awhile and had the radio installed by some executive(?) who was using it? Maybe.

The engine was removed by Leeper so his wife could have air conditioning installed. He installed a standard 289 with an ac unit. When I bought  it Leeper no longer had the R3 engine. He had sold it to his mechanic. I was told it was in a Stude truck and the mechanic had moved to the Phoenix area. I later found out that Ed Reynolds bought the engine and put it in a black 64 convertible. Roy Heckers bought the convertible and he sold it to a fellow in Knoxville, Tenn. I kept in contact with the fellow in Tennessee and after twenty or thirty years I was able to buy the car with engine. Now the original engine is mated to its original car. At least it’s on an engine stand next to it.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Nelson

[mfg]

15 hours ago, Nelson said:

I guess I should know this as it was/is my car. R5593. Originally delivered to Leepers Studebaker. Gray, black interior, automatic, 4.09 axle, tilt wheel and am/fm as delivered. The am/fm not on the PO. However the car had 700 miles on it when delivered so probably was used in SB for awhile and had the radio installed by some executive(?) who was using it? Maybe.

The engine was removed by Leeper so his wife could have air conditioning installed. He installed a standard 289 with an ac unit. When I bought  it Leeper no longer had the R3 engine. He had sold it to his mechanic. I was told it was in a Stude truck and the mechanic had moved to the Phoenix area. I later found out that Ed Reynolds bought the engine and put it in a black 64 convertible. Roy Heckers bought the convertible and he sold it to a fellow in Knoxville, Tenn. I kept in contact with the fellow in Tennessee and after twenty or thirty years I was able to buy the car with engine. Now the original engine is mated to its original car. At least it’s on an engine stand next to it.

Wow!... thanks Nelson...Best of luck with this very special Avanti...and that's 'THE REST OF THE STORY' !!

[mfg]

I think the above story borders on amazing!!....... Wouldn't it be great if the R5 engine was re-united with the Due Cento Avanti??

[Dwight FitzSimons]

5 hours ago, mfg said:

I think the above story borders on amazing!!....... Wouldn't it be great if the R5 engine was re-united with the Due Cento Avanti??

That's another story.  The last time I heard the Due Cento car and R5 engine were owned by two different people.  Someone will know much more than I about this.

--Dwight

[Geoff]

12 hours ago, mfg said:

"...and that's 'THE REST OF THE STORY' !!"

-Paul Harvey

I only caught him in his late years but I miss that guy.

[Anthony63]

As far as the Due Cento goes my understanding is that the engine that has been built is a tribute (for lack of better terms) with some of the original intake components. 

[mfg]

3 minutes ago, Anthony63 said:

As far as the Due Cento goes my understanding is that the engine that has been built is a tribute (for lack of better terms) with some of the original intake components. 

Not too sure...a piece of the original engine block's oil pan mounting flange was broken out when a rod let go, but I'm pretty sure that the original block was eventually repaired ??

 

[Gunslinger]

I saw that engine when it was rebuilt and is supposedly the original block and heads having taken some years to collect all the original or correct parts.  

 

 

[mfg]

Great photos of a 'holy grail' type of powerplant!!

Well, hopefully someday that engine will be re-united with the Due Cento Avanti!

[Anthony63]

Vince and I were good friends years ago. I helped out around the shop for a while before working for Mercedes-Benz. Also I specifically talked with Andy back in 2012 (around there) about this engine after I saw it at the South Bend meet. All of the Due Cento engines had been stamped, this one was not. Also Andy confirmed that none of the engines had a hole in the cylinder, this one pictured above did. There was an engine for the Due Cento that was blown on the dyno, but it was numbered. Somewhere I think I have a list laying around from Andy of which blocks were R-3s, which were built to be R-4s, and what block numbers were R-5s. He did confirm that the engine above does have one of the original intake systems and pulley setups that was used on the car. 

[mfg]

6 minutes ago, Anthony63 said:

Vince and I were good friends years ago. I helped out around the shop for a while before working for Mercedes-Benz. Also I specifically talked with Andy back in 2012 (around there) about this engine after I saw it at the South Bend meet. All of the Due Cento engines had been stamped, this one was not. Also Andy confirmed that none of the engines had a hole in the cylinder, this one pictured above did. There was an engine for the Due Cento that was blown on the dyno, but it was numbered. Somewhere I think I have a list laying around from Andy of which blocks were R-3s, which were built to be R-4s, and what block numbers were R-5s. He did confirm that the engine above does have one of the original intake systems and pulley setups that was used on the car. 

Hmmm!.. interesting!.. so there were a few other 'R5' engines that didn't quite 'make it' !!!

(It's wonderful that folks like Anthony63 are willing to share their memories!)

[Anthony63]

The heads on that engine are definitely not those from a Due Cento engine. The Due Cento had domed pistons and therefore had modified combustion chambers on the heads. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but I also want correct information being told. What B number is stamped on that block? It is good to see that the intake components are there. Does anyone know what all the current owner of the car has? 

It also seems as though the number 9 car has disappeared. Anyone know of its whereabouts? 

[lschuc]

2 hours ago, Anthony63 said:

 

It also seems as though the number 9 car has disappeared. Anyone know of its whereabouts? 

Last I heard, the #9 car was still in the Studebaker National Museum.... unless just recently it was sent back to California to the man who inherited John Hora's estate.  But I do not know if that has happened. 

[Anthony63]

Good to know. I had heard that it was removed when John passed.

[Nelson]

Anthony. What do you know about the number 8 Avanti? Was it run at Bonneville at all.? If not, why?

[Gunslinger]

The #8 Avanti had an overheating problem.

[Nelson]

I’ve heard that but never from someone who was there. Do you know that for fact or just heard that through the grape vine like me?

[Geoff]

I've come to the conclusion that every Avanti has an overheating problem to a varying degree. Whether you encounter it or not depends upon how hard one runs the car. The more demanding the performance, the more exacerbating the issue. Mr. Loewy really needed to design something into the car's shape to release air from the engine bay. A fender louver, one or multiple hood louvers, some combination thereof.

If he had, the car's shape [factory stock and in whatever class it was] would have performed better. Due Cento, even on the wet salt, may have officially recorded 200 the first time out. Ron Hall would not have needed the muffler designed airdam. Top speed racers wouldn't need to chafe the shark's mouth against Mother Earth. The car's already good Cd would be better Cd. And heated aero eddy air would be removed from the engine bay. Also, people who don't understand the real problem would not have punched extra holes in the car's fascia thinking they were doing a lick of good.

[Gunslinger]

I can’t remember the source but the information I had was that the #8 car was intended to do the record runs but the overheating issue relegated the car to photo and backup status and the #9 car was used to make the record runs.

As far as streaming goes…the techniques used today such as air dams, spoilers and the like were all but unknown then.  Besides…Studebaker probably didn’t have time and money for such things.  The Granatellis went with known techniques that could be adapted quickly and cheaply.

Racing teams today use computer simulations and wind tunnels to fine tune designs.  

[lschuc]

2 hours ago, Gunslinger said:

I can’t remember the source but the information I had was that the #8 car was intended to do the record runs but the overheating issue relegated the car to photo and backup status and the #9 car was used to make the record runs.

As far as streaming goes…the techniques used today such as air dams, spoilers and the like were all but unknown then.  Besides…Studebaker probably didn’t have time and money for such things.  The Granatellis went with known techniques that could be adapted quickly and cheaply.

Racing teams today use computer simulations and wind tunnels to fine tune designs.  

John Hora has said this a number of time, that the #8 car was used as the backup to the #9 Bonneville car.