Fuel Pump/Supercharger

[FoLola]

Hello to all! I am new to the forum and to Avanti ownership. I just purchased a 63 R2 (R4190), 4 speed. It has an R3 airbox and some other R3 modifications.

Can someone explain what the fuel pump/supercharger have to do with each other?  

Thansk,

Frank

[mfg]

They have a harmonious relationship!....The high performance fuel pump found on R2 Avanti engines supplies the carb with plenty of fuel EXCEPT UNDER SUPERCHARGED CONDITIONS!

The fuel pump pressure would be trumped by the lbs/sq in of air pressure provided by the supercharger if Studebaker did not add that 1/4" line at the air volute of the blower....That line increases pressure on the fuel pump diaphragm as boost goes up, thereby increasing fuel pump pressure, overcoming supercharger boost pressure, which in turn allows the needed extra fuel to enter the carb............

Under supercharged conditions, Avantis are definitely not economy cars!!

[1963r2]

R2/3 used a different fuel pump than the non supercharged cars.

There is a fitting on the side of the fuel pump for a separate fuel/pressure line to the supercharger.

Like what MFG said

Edited November 24, 2017 by 1963r2

[Kennie B.]

Frank, welcome aboard and congratulations on your new baby.

Since you are in Oregon, have you thought about attending the International Meet in Tacoma?  It's coming end of Aug 2018.

Cheers,

Ken

[FoLola]

Thanks for the information! Makes sense now. 

I am looking forward to getting the car reliable and safe. It is 54 years old after all.

On another note, here is a shot of the RCR Lola T70 MK3B i built over four years. Road legal, LS3 power, Porsche G96 6 speed. The car is raw, harsh, loud, cramped, hot and no rearward visibility. But a real hoot to drive.

 

[mfg]

That Lola is absolutely gorgeous....It just 'looks right'!!!......And street legal too?..WOW!

(I too have a keen interest in the Indianapolis Novi race cars)

[Kennie B.]

Frank, you clearly are not a fan of subtlety!

As for rearward vision, it's highly overrated.  Just go fast enough so that what's behind you doesn't matter.

Looking forward to pictures of the Avanti.  Is it ready to rock and roll or is it a project?

[Gunslinger]

1 hour ago, Kennie B. said:

 As for rearward vision, it's highly overrated.  Just go fast enough so that what's behind you doesn't matter. 

If you've ever seen the movie "Gumball Rally" that subject came up.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGXn249Fc0

Edited November 26, 2017 by Gunslinger

[FoLola]

The Avanti is in pretty good shape but needs some love. I suspect a fuel issue as it has "run out of gas" after only a few miles. Maybe the fuel pump/supercharger relationship is not correct? I need it to stop raining for a road test (maybe June?). I replaced and re-wired the alternator which now charges the new battery correctly. There are other electrical issues such as tach and radio are not working. But overall a very nice car. 

Thanks for the comments on the Lola. It is NOT subtle!

Part of what I do at the World of Speed Museum is work on the Andy Granetelli collection that the family donated. Lots of stuff on the Avanti program and the Novi's. I actually found the ORIGINAL paper drawings on the Novi engine, drawn by Leo Goossen. True works of art. At one point they were considering putting the Novi engine into the Lotus turbine car chassis after the turbine was "banned." What an honor it is to go through the material. AND we are getting a Novi engine from the Tom Malloy Collection (use the Google to find out more).

[Kennie B.]

7 hours ago, FoLola said:

The Avanti is in pretty good shape but needs some love. I suspect a fuel issue as it has "run out of gas" after only a few miles. Maybe the fuel pump/supercharger relationship is not correct? 

Have looking into vapour lock?

[Ron Dame]

22 hours ago, FoLola said:

The Avanti is in pretty good shape but needs some love. I suspect a fuel issue as it has "run out of gas" after only a few miles. Maybe the fuel pump/supercharger relationship is not correct? I need it to stop raining for a road test (maybe June?). I replaced and re-wired the alternator which now charges the new battery correctly. There are other electrical issues such as tach and radio are not working. But overall a very nice car. 

Thanks for the comments on the Lola. It is NOT subtle!

Part of what I do at the World of Speed Museum is work on the Andy Granetelli collection that the family donated. Lots of stuff on the Avanti program and the Novi's. I actually found the ORIGINAL paper drawings on the Novi engine, drawn by Leo Goossen. True works of art. At one point they were considering putting the Novi engine into the Lotus turbine car chassis after the turbine was "banned." What an honor it is to go through the material. AND we are getting a Novi engine from the Tom Malloy Collection (use the Google to find out more).

Be certain that your fuel tank is venting, when it dies, take the cap off and listen for a 'whoosh'. That means it is not venting correctly.

[GlennW]

Edited November 27, 2017 by GlennW

[FoLola]

GlennW:

I think that's a shot of the 1964 Novi Ferguson 4WD car that Bobby Unser drove. Unfortunately he was out due to a multiple car crash on the second lap. I wonder what the mechanic is doing? He appears to have a remote cable for something in his hand.

The Granatellis spent hundreds of hours dyno testing the Novi trying to solve a high speed miss. Vince (Andy's son, named for his brother) recalls that the problem was due to the fuel being introduced before the supercharger. They tried Holly aircraft carburetors and Bendix fuel injection without success. The supercharger acted like a centrifuge and caused the fuel to "puddle" starving the back cylinders. I found documents where the locals near their shop were complaining of the Novi's noise on the dyno, so they had to construct a huge muffler system on the roof of the dyno building. Fascinating stuff!

Anyone in the area of Wilsonville Oregon needs to visit the World of Speed when the Granatelli exhibit opens (I think at the first of the year. I'll confirm when I know more.)

[saddletramp]

Frank, I found my 63 Avanti R1855 in a warehouse in Pendleton, Oregon.  It had been in storage for 28 years, but after cleaning the fuel pump and carb, it fired on the original ignition.  That was 2004, and in the next 5 years I had my hands on EVERY part of that car.  It is a driver with 59000  original miles, and the only thing not stock in the drivetrain is a worldclass Tremec 5 speed which makes the 3.73 rear tolerable on the road.

Good Luck with your 

avanti.  Bill Nelson

[GlennW]

I agree, that looks like a live axle w/outboard brakes, I guess that'd make sense if they needed the inboard space for the differential. Whatever that cable is, it looks like it's secured to the car near the right side, and goes into some kind of fitting or grommet hole on the left. Maybe the guy in the pic doesn't know where the other end attaches, either ☺ Car looks like it's in a museum or part of a show display in this pic.http://www.autos.ca/galleries/2010/thumbs/mdm-10199-novi_bv-10199.jpg   

[GlennW]

Looky what I found on the interweb! It's Indy, 1965;

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/the-1965-indy-500-part-2-the-novis-and-the-rear-engine-revolution/

[lschuc]

On 11/26/2017 at 11:37 AM, FoLola said:

The Avanti is in pretty good shape but needs some love. I suspect a fuel issue as it has "run out of gas" after only a few miles.

 

Frank,    Your lack of fuel to the carburetor sounds like maybe the fuel tank is rusty inside and the rust is clogging the fitting at the bottom of the tank.  I had this happen on another Avanti, and figured out the problem..... I could start and drive the car for a short distance before the engine would quit.   I had an airtank with me and removed the inlet line at the fuel pump.. no gas came out, so I blew air through the line from the front of the car, which cleared the rust in the bottom of the tank and after replacing the line on the fuel pump, let me start the engine again.   But the tank was so rusty that after a short time,  the fuel line would clog again.

Check your tank and if it is rusty inside, remove the tank and have it boiled out at a radiator shop and coated inside.

Lew

[mfg]

4 hours ago, GlennW said:

I agree, that looks like a live axle w/outboard brakes, I guess that'd make sense if they needed the inboard space for the differential. Whatever that cable is, it looks like it's secured to the car near the right side, and goes into some kind of fitting or grommet hole on the left. Maybe the guy in the pic doesn't know where the other end attaches, either ☺ Car looks like it's in a museum or part of a show display in this pic.http://www.autos.ca/galleries/2010/thumbs/mdm-10199-novi_bv-10199.jpg   

Glenn, if you look close at the cable you can see that there are actually TWO cables there!....One runs from the device in the mechanics hand toward the right front wheel area, the other is fastened to the car with clips,..... and I'm fairly sure that one is the throttle cable, attaching at the front to the fuel injection unit just ahead of the blower.

[mfg]

And upon closer inspection I believe the device in the mechanics hand isn't a cable at all!...I think it's one of those 'twirly' type quick change spark plug tools...what appears to be a cable is the straight 'shaft' section of the tool.

What the mechanic is doing to this NOVI is changing its spark plugs (16)...and that's an empty spark plug holding fixture laying on top of the cowl.

[mfg]

NOVI TRIVIA!!!>>>>>>>>Although Bobby Unser felt comfortable in this car, the other two NOVI drivers (McElreath & Malone) felt it was unsafe......does anyone know why?

[studegary]

35 minutes ago, mfg said:

NOVI TRIVIA!!!>>>>>>>>Although Bobby Unser felt comfortable in this car, the other two NOVI drivers (McElreath & Malone) felt it was unsafe......does anyone know why?

They were taller.

[GlennW]

15 hours ago, mfg said:

And upon closer inspection I believe the device in the mechanics hand isn't a cable at all!...I think it's one of those 'twirly' type quick change spark plug tools...what appears to be a cable is the straight 'shaft' section of the tool.

What the mechanic is doing to this NOVI is changing its spark plugs (16)...and that's an empty spark plug holding fixture laying on top of the cowl.

Good catch. I was looking at the curved cable and the item being held does pass lower and apart from the cable.

[FoLola]

22 hours ago, lschuc said:

Frank,    Your lack of fuel to the carburetor sounds like maybe the fuel tank is rusty inside and the rust is clogging the fitting at the bottom of the tank.  I had this happen on another Avanti, and figured out the problem..... I could start and drive the car for a short distance before the engine would quit.   I had an airtank with me and removed the inlet line at the fuel pump.. no gas came out, so I blew air through the line from the front of the car, which cleared the rust in the bottom of the tank and after replacing the line on the fuel pump, let me start the engine again.   But the tank was so rusty that after a short time,  the fuel line would clog again.

Check your tank and if it is rusty inside, remove the tank and have it boiled out at a radiator shop and coated inside.

Lew

Lew:

I just pulled the in line fuel filter and what came out was more like Starbuck's Grande Latte than 76 Premium. I don't have my factory manual yet so it looks like to remove the tank I go in through the panel behind the rear seat. Anything I need to be aware of before I start digging in?

Thanks,

Frank

[lschuc]

Frank, 

Maybe first put a new filter on and see how long it takes before it gets filled up with rust and the engine quits running.  Or, also remove the fuel line from the input to the fuel pump and see if gas flows out of the line.  Since the tank is higher than the engine, fuel should flow freely when you remove the line from the pump.  If no fuel come out, try using your air hose and blow air back through the line to the tank.  if the tank drain is clogged, air will temporarily clear the drain in the bottom of the tank and fuel will again flow out of the line. 

If this is the case, then the tank output hole will most likely again clog.  

Go under the car and find the short section of fuel line hose coming from the brass fitting in the bottom of the tank, directly above the rear differential. Hopefully you don't have a lot of fuel in the tank, and you can put a pan under the  tank to catch the fuel that drains out.... or if clogged, put a long hose on the brass fitting and put the hose into a larger gas can.  if the fuel flow stops, you can blow air back through this hose and again clear any rust clogging the drain.   

After all the gas is out, unscrew the brass fitting from under the tank.  This fitting must be removed before you remove the tank.

After the brass fitting is removed,  go inside the car and remove the rear seat cushions.  Then behind the rear seat back is a fiberglass panel held in place by 20-30 screws.   Remove the screws, then the panel,  and then you can remove the other hoses, tank straps and remove the tank to get boiled out, cleaned and sealed.

[silverstude]

On 11/27/2017 at 8:48 PM, FoLola said:

GlennW:

He appears to have a remote cable for something in his hand.

 

I believe that's the throttle cable.  It's attached to the Holley fuel mixer behind that front bulkhead which feeds the LARGE Paxton...