Avanti II engine

[Jim78]

11 hours ago, Mike Sal said:

I just ran across what appears to be something on the order of a window sticker (or invoice) for my RQA 0330.  The list of "standard equipment" mentions "350cu. in. Stingray Engine", but no code number.  I also have the build sheet (September '69) which also only says "350 cu. in. Engine".  The engine number listed at the top portion of the build sheet shows number V09078BQ (I think the first digit is a V.....it's hand written on the form).

Mike Sal

The V indicates that it was built in the Flint engine plant.  0907 is September 7.  No luck in decoding the 8BQ suffix, are you sure of these digits?  You can verify them by checking the numbers on the block.  These are found stamped on a pad, on the front of the block, passenger side, just below the head.  Depending on the configuration, you may need to move an accessory to see this pad.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Jim78

[TED DIMON]

13 hours ago, Mike Sal said:

I just ran across what appears to be something on the order of a window sticker (or invoice) for my RQA 0330.  The list of "standard equipment" mentions "350cu. in. Stingray Engine", but no code number.  I also have the build sheet (September '69) which also only says "350 cu. in. Engine".  The engine number listed at the top portion of the build sheet shows number V09078BQ (I think the first digit is a V.....it's hand written on the form).

Mike Sal

If I understand this correctly, your 1970 Avanti is RQA 0330.  My 1969 is RQA 0375  (engine #  V03128BQ)   Is it possible for there to be a 45 car difference with the higher VIN being a year earlier?  I can understand the 6,000 difference in engine numbers......GM may have been shipping the engines randomly.

[Jim78]

2 hours ago, TED DIMON said:

If I understand this correctly, your 1970 Avanti is RQA 0330.  My 1969 is RQA 0375  (engine #  V03128BQ)   Is it possible for there to be a 45 car difference with the higher VIN being a year earlier?  I can understand the 6,000 difference in engine numbers......GM may have been shipping the engines randomly.

The Engine number V0328 indicates that it was built at the Flint engine plant on March 28. 

[Gunslinger]

4 hours ago, TED DIMON said:

If I understand this correctly, your 1970 Avanti is RQA 0330.  My 1969 is RQA 0375  (engine #  V03128BQ)   Is it possible for there to be a 45 car difference with the higher VIN being a year earlier?  I can understand the 6,000 difference in engine numbers......GM may have been shipping the engines randomly.

Avanti Motors didn't build or finish cars necessarily in order.  Cars for customers took precedence over cars built on spec regardless of numerical sequence.  Avanti Motors was also known for occasionally retitling a car for a different year or even repainting a car for an order to get it out the door quicker.  Supposedly there are even gaps in numbers for no known reason.

As far as engine numbers go, you are quite correct...GM could be shipping engines in random numerical sequence.  It may have depended on GM's own needs.  Avanti Motors would buy something like a six-month supply of engines to get a quantity discount, but that doesn't mean engines were stored and pulled in any kind of numerical sequence.

[Mike Sal]

Our car (RQA 0330) was built in September, '69.  It didn't get sold for a long time (the avocado green paint & bright lime green carpet may have been a factor....).   I talked to Dan Booth at The SB meet & he thinks the colors indicate the car was a fill in spec car of which the Altmans were famous for picking loud browns & greens.

Mike Sal

[TED DIMON]

11 hours ago, Mike Sal said:

Our car (RQA 0330) was built in September, '69.  It didn't get sold for a long time (the avocado green paint & bright lime green carpet may have been a factor....).   I talked to Dan Booth at The SB meet & he thinks the colors indicate the car was a fill in spec car of which the Altmans were famous for picking loud browns & greens.

Mike Sal

Loud browns and greens.......what were they thinking?!

[Gunslinger]

My '70 was originally painted a dark brown, had walnut colored console and dash inlays with matching steering column, mahogany upholstery and orange shag carpeting.  My wife said that the '70s weren't known as the decade of no taste without reason.

[TED DIMON]

I could have handled everything but the orange shag carpeting!!!

[studegary]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:02 PM, TED DIMON said:

If I understand this correctly, your 1970 Avanti is RQA 0330.  My 1969 is RQA 0375  (engine #  V03128BQ)   Is it possible for there to be a 45 car difference with the higher VIN being a year earlier?  I can understand the 6,000 difference in engine numbers......GM may have been shipping the engines randomly.

According to my records, both of those S/Ns are 1970 Avantis.  I show RQA 0313 as the last 1969 Avanti. 

Possibly, RQA 0375 was assembled in the 1969 calendar year as a 1970 model and erroneously titled as a 1969.  I don't have a check on the assembly dates, so this is an educated guess.  

I don't think that it was GM "shipping the engines randomly", but rather, Avanti using the engines in a batch in no particular order.  

[TED DIMON]

22 hours ago, studegary said:

According to my records, both of those S/Ns are 1970 Avantis.  I show RQA 0313 as the last 1969 Avanti. 

Possibly, RQA 0375 was assembled in the 1969 calendar year as a 1970 model and erroneously titled as a 1969.  I don't have a check on the assembly dates, so this is an educated guess.  

I don't think that it was GM "shipping the engines randomly", but rather, Avanti using the engines in a batch in no particular order.  

Now that I understand the engine situation a little better, I agree with your last sentence!

Regarding the model year information, the build sheet shows that the production order was written  on June 5, 1969.  There is no "date to ship" or "sales order number" listed.  The "destination is listed as The Tele General Corporation in New York, New York.  I would take this to mean that it was not a spec car and might have been completed before the end of the 1969 model year.  Or, your "educated guess" above is probably the best explanation!

Many thanks for your interest.  The more we know about our individual cars, the more fun it is to own them............Ted Dimon

[silverstude]

 

My car ,1970  RQA-0381 had the build written on June 26, 1969 - Engine# V0312880 (350/300) - Body #RQ-4921  

 

Does anyone who owns an early Avanti II still have the body tag on the car?

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by silverstude

[TED DIMON]

5 hours ago, silverstude said:

 

My car ,1970  RQA-0381 had the build written on June 26, 1969 - Engine# V0312880 (350/300) - Body #RQ-4921  

 

Does anyone who owns an early Avanti II still have the body tag on the car?

 

Where is the body tag located on a 1969/1970?

 

[Gunslinger]

That's right about the time Avanti Motors discontinued using body tags.  I have the exact car they did so but until I'm home and check.

[TED DIMON]

On 7/29/2017 at 4:11 PM, Gunslinger said:

That's right about the time Avanti Motors discontinued using body tags.  I have the exact car they did so but until I'm home and check.

 

On 7/29/2017 at 4:11 PM, Gunslinger said:

That's right about the time Avanti Motors discontinued using body tags.  I have the exact car they did so but until I'm home and check.

Were you able to find out when they discontinued using body tags?

[Gunslinger]

Sorry...I neglected to look it up.  The first Avanti II without the body tag was RQB1516...all prior to that would have had a body number tag mounted.

[R2W55]

I'm new to this group having just bought a 78 that is going to be a complete frame off Restoration.

My car RQ-B 2731 had the build sheet.  So to answer the question of the engine in the 78, my sheet says '350 CU. IN. Engine - 1978'.

I just pulled the engine and that does appear correct.

A question I have is, since this car is 30 years old, can  get rid of all the Anti-pollution crap?  there must have been 20 different vacuum lines on the carburetor!

 

[Gunslinger]

First...welcome!  

As far as your question regarding the emissions equipment...it depends on your state of residence and its laws.  More than likely it's ok to eliminate all this equipment...maybe.  Even if it is legal, that leaves a lot of vacuum connections that will need capping off.  

Are you going to rebuild or replace the engine?  If so, you can use components that don't have vacuum nipples.  It's mostly likely cheaper to drop crate engine in...rebuilding an engine requires significant machine shop time and that's expensive.  That's your call.  Matching numbers engines on an Avanti II really make little to no difference in value.  I went the crate engine route on my car and chose an engine that suited what I wanted out of the car.

Don't hesitate to ask questions as you rebuild your car.  There's a lot of experience here and many, if not most of us, have faced the problems unique to Avantis.

[R2W55]

Thank you for the comments.

I'm in Illinois and plan on registering as an Antique vehicle so I don't think I will have the emissions tests, but I need to find out.

Just pulled engine and trans this weekend.  WHEW bigger job than expected and  I've pulled a few engines before. Nose is so long on the car I had to lift engine from the side.

there are 100K miles on it but I am going to compression check, pull pan and plastic gauge a few bearing to see how good/bad it is.  then I'll decide if just replace gaskets and seals or rebuild. 

Interesting about not matching numbers.   I was thinking that was going to be important.

My next goal is to start stripping parts and interior to get the body off so I can inspect the frame better.

[Avanti83]

SBC's (350's) of that era were never known for their performance. If you are going to rebuild it, ashcan the pollution equipment and add decent performance equipment. The crate engine is a good idea but if you want to keep the original block and heads, talk to a local rebuilder that is known for performance and spec out the compression ratio, cam shaft, intake manifold and carb. The difference will be a pleasant surprise. 

Personally, I'd keep the original engine for the next buyer and PM forum member PackardV8  Jack Vines, talk to him about your needs and have him build the engine you will enjoy. Add a 700R4 transmission to the package and drive happy.

Or you could go 383 stroker and a T56 6-speed for the gold.

 

[Gunslinger]

When you pull the body don't be surprised if you find some stress cracks in the fiberglass body where it's not normally visible.  Where the power brake booster bracket mounts is a good place to check.

[Avanti83]

5 minutes ago, Gunslinger said:

When you pull the body don't be surprised if you find some stress cracks in the fiberglass body where it's not normally visible.  Where the power brake booster bracket mounts is a good place to check.

Excellent point, also check the front cross member under the motor mounts. Engine torque plus pee poor assembly practices lead to fractures. 

 

 

 

 

[R2W55]

Thank you for all the good information so far.

I'll keep updateing my progress and I'm sure more questions.

Are there ANY service manuals on the Avanti?  I have the original owners manual (what a joke) but it doesn't say much.

By the way, I now need to sell my last project vehicle, a 1940 Ford Pickup with the 85 HP V8 Flathead.  95% original. Great driver. Restored about 4 years ago.

[Gunslinger]

Yes...Studebaker put out a parts manual as well as a shop manual on the Avanti.  They're each available as reprints, originals someone wants to sell and on CD.  

While there are some differences in your '78 and a Studebaker as far as some parts (Avanti did regular updates on options, plus new parts such as switches and some trim as original parts ran out...plus to meet federal regs)...the information in the manuals is still very relevant for a '78.  

I think you can buy reprints of the manuals on Amazon and originals are usually available on eBay.  While the CD has all the same information, I guess I'm too old school and find the physical manuals easier to use.

[R2W55]

Just ordered both from Avanti Parts and Restorations.

thanks

[Skip Lackie]

With respect to the original question about whether you can remove emissions equipment: as a practical matter, yes; as a legal matter, maybe.  There is a federal law that makes it illegal to remove or tamper with required emissions-control equipment.  There is another federal law that grants EPA with the authority to establish emissions standards.  There are numerous EPA regs that implement this authority and require the states to give emissions tests to vehicles in areas that are not in compliance with emissions standards.  There is also an EPA reg that allows states to exempt vehicles with antique/historic plates from emissions testing.  Most states have done that.  So even if the law prohibiting the removal of emissions equipment still applies in some theoretical sense, how are they gonna catch you?