R3 dual carb

[Rags63]

46 minutes ago, 64studeavanti said:

Can you provide serial number of car? Do you have production order from the Studebaker museum?

Have the original purchase order from 1963 when my grandfather ordered the car. Its originally an r2 he ordered the 304 form stu-v in 74 along with intake and had head work done at the same time. Serial number is R4396 

[1963r2]

1 hour ago, 64studeavanti said:

Factory R3 serial numbers are in the form R3S followed by a letter for the month, followed by the number 3 (for 1963) followed by day of month.

 

There may also be a 'B' number, most say it is located back by the distributor.

This appears to be a rare factory block. That is why I stated that I would return it to R3 configuration. I wonder if it has the domed pistons and Howard's rods.

Thank you for that information 

[64studeavanti]

Just curious where the factory R3 came from. Does any one know if there is a list of factory R3 engines?

[Luma]

From Bobs Resource & Information Page are these fine lists of R3 & R4 data.

                                          https://www.studebaker-info.org/XLS/R3cars02b.htm

                                          https://www.studebaker-info.org/XLS/R34pub41.htm

Also reference back to the "3810" pictures, here is a 1964 R1 3589 underside picture. 

 

 

[PackardV8]

On 6/16/2020 at 6:04 AM, 64studeavanti said:

Just curious where the factory R3 came from. Does any one know if there is a list of factory R3 engines?

There were nine Avanti delivered with R3 engines and there is a list of those.

For many years after Studebaker closed, Paxton Products sold R3 engines built from leftover parts.  Then Stu-V bought the leftover leftovers from Paxton and sold partial R3s.  IIRC, by that time, the R3 heads and connecting rods were NLA, so modified R2 components were substituted.   It appears yours is one of those.

FWIW, none of the OEM R3s or few of the Paxton R3s were built with roller camshafts.  That yours has it is unusual.

We have a member of this group who holds the personal opinion that since Paxton was once owned by Studebaker, any engines they built should be considered "original".  Since the some of the parts Stu-V used were made by Studebaker and once owned by Paxton, wonder if he's going to include yours in his personal list of "original R3s?"

jack vines

[Rags63]

I want to say thank you for all the input. I have a lot of work ahead of me to get this car back on the road. I will try and post some pic along the way. What are some important things to go over on a engine that has been siting for a while. I know I need to do valve cover gaskets and oil pan. When I do this is there any thing I should look for? 

[Dwight FitzSimons]

Heads with casting number 1555479 are R3 or R4 heads.  An engine with S/N R3S M305 should be one of the ten factory installed by Studebaker (9 Avantis, one Commander 2-dr.).  AFAIK all R3 and R4 engines not factory installed in a car should have an A or B prefix on its S/N (someone correct me if I'm wrong).  Engine number R3S M305 was assembled on Nov. 5, 1963 (not Dec.--December has a month code of N.)
--Dwight

 

[mfg]

Rags 63....the engine in your '63 Avanti certainly raised some eyebrows on this forum!

           Not only the fact that it's an original R3, but the fact it also carries a Studebaker 'factory' engine number!

           It seems to me that its origin would be one of the following three possibilities.....   .....

1) The engine was originally installed in the one and only R3 Commander sedan.....NOPE!...that car, owned by Nels Bove, definitely has its original R3.

2) Your engine was originally installed in one of the nine factory R3 Avantis.....POSSIBLE!...if any of those  Avantis had its engine changed after being sold.

3) (and most likely)....your R3 engine was shipped from Paxton Products to Studebaker for installation into an Avanti, Lark, or even a Gran Turismo Hawk that was NEVER BUILT...and the engine was later sold off when production in South Bend ended.

Once again...VERY INTERESTING!!

[PackardV8]

Another likely possibility, since this engine was rebuilt by Stu-V, is that an original car blew its engine, had it replaced by something else, maybe from Paxton or Stu-V and the reusable parts were swept up into this build by Stu-V.

jack vines

 

[Rags63]

On 6/18/2020 at 1:46 PM, PackardV8 said:

Another likely possibility, since this engine was rebuilt by Stu-V, is that an original car blew its engine, had it replaced by something else, maybe from Paxton or Stu-V and the reusable parts were swept up into this build by Stu-V.

jack vines

 

As far as i know all is original except the engine and I am learning now that the rear end may be out of a defrent studebaker.

[mfg]

Rags63......When you have time, I think writing up a story about your Avanti and its rare engine (with photos), and sending it to editor Lew Schucart, would result in a very interesting article for Avanti Magazine!

(editor@aoai.org)

[arkus]

if we know that r3s 305 SHOULD have been 1 of 10 factory installed engines and nels has his original engine it would appear that perhaps at least one of the nine factory r-3s does not have it's original engine. one would think there would be a list accounting to this. if there is, that would easily explain how this great engine find wound up where it did. curious !!

[studegary]

54 minutes ago, arkus said:

if we know that r3s 305 SHOULD have been 1 of 10 factory installed engines and nels has his original engine it would appear that perhaps at least one of the nine factory r-3s does not have it's original engine. one would think there would be a list accounting to this. if there is, that would easily explain how this great engine find wound up where it did. curious !!

Perhaps it was built for stock by Studebaker and not used in one of the nine Avantis.  It may have been sold as a replacement or excess stock engine.  Since for the 1964 model year, more than one similar engine can have the same engine number, things (like tracking) become more difficult. 

[arkus]

plausible gary, but if there is credence to dwight's statement of THAT engine being one of ten it just makes this mystery more interesting. could there be a list that would solve this? i'm willing to bet that the nine folks who own the original r-3 cars are well aware of their respective engine numbers.

[1963r2]

Wasn' t there talk years ago that one of the 9 may have had the engine removed and it was owned by someone else?

[mfg]

7 hours ago, arkus said:

plausible gary, but if there is credence to dwight's statement of THAT engine being one of ten it just makes this mystery more interesting. could there be a list that would solve this? i'm willing to bet that the nine folks who own the original r-3 cars are well aware of their respective engine numbers.

After checking the engine serial numbers of the nine 'production' 1964 Studebaker Avantis (from the production orders), I see that 'Rags63' R3 engine, 'R3SM305' was not originally installed in any of those cars.

[brad]

I always pull the valve covers, and hit the valves with a rawhide mallet.  If there are any stuck valves you can bend the push rods, and /or possibly break the cam.  An added benefit is you can then adjust the valve lash before attempting to start it.  On any street driven engine, a vacuum advance makes the car more driveable, and economical. I have run MSD on many builds, and it is a good ignition. You can use the points to trigger it, or a magnetic hall effect switch like Chrysler, or Pertronix uses.  This one was supercharged, dual 4bbls, and airconditioned. It can be done, and all fit under the hood too. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by brad

[mfg]

What a NICELY detailed Avanti engine!!

[studegary]

9 hours ago, mfg said:

What a NICELY detailed Avanti engine!!

I agree.  It just needs an overflow hose.  

[mfg]

What Studebaker's original intended use of Rags63 R3 engine was has to one of the most interesting Stude/Avanti related questions to come along in a long time!

The Studebaker factory serial number, R3SM305, stamped on the block must indicate, in my humble opinion, that Studebaker had planned to build a car around this engine.....

But what was that car to be??....A TENTH 'production' R3 Avanti?.....A SECOND 'production' R3 powered 'Lark type'?....Or maybe it would have been a 'production line' R3 powered Gran Turismo Hawk? (What a car THAT would have been!!)

Yes, the question of the original intended use of this rare R3 engine I find to be VERY INTERESTING!.....Ed

Edited July 5, 2020 by mfg

[studegary]

6 minutes ago, mfg said:

What Studebaker's original intended use of Rags63 R3 engine was has to one of the most interesting Stude/Avanti related questions to come along in a long time!

The Studebaker factory serial number, R3SM305, stamped on the block must indicate, in my humble opinion, that Studebaker had planned to build a car around this engine.....

But what was that car to be??....A TENTH 'production' R3 Avanti?.....A SECOND 'production' R3 powered 'Lark type'?....Or maybe it would have been a 'production line' R3 powered Gran Turismo Hawk? (What a car THAT would have been!!)

Yes, the question of the original intended use of this rare R3 engine I find to be VERY INTERESTING!.....Ed

Perhaps it was just built for stock in case of failure (no warranty on the R3 engine) of one of the ten originally installed engines.  Or, they could have just built one or more for over the counter sales.  Isn't that what George Krem did (buy an R3 from Studebaker)? What is the engine number of the engine now installed in his car? 

[mfg]

15 minutes ago, studegary said:

Perhaps it was just built for stock in case of failure (no warranty on the R3 engine) of one of the ten originally installed engines.  Or, they could have just built one or more for over the counter sales.  Isn't that what George Krem did (buy an R3 from Studebaker)? What is the engine number of the engine now installed in his car? 

Hmmm....my opinion on your thoughts (for what it's worth) is this.......I doubt there would be a factory serial number on this R3 block if were built as a warranty engine.....We know that Studebaker V8 replacement engines either had a 'cloverleaf' on the serial pad, or nothing there at all.

I also do not believe there would be a factory serial number stamped on it if it originally was , as you say, an "over the counter" engine....There would however be the Paxton stamped "B" number.

I'm quite sure that's the case ("B" number only) with George Krem's R3 engine, which he purchased from Studebaker for his 'Plain Brown Wrapper' years ago.

 

[studegary]

26 minutes ago, mfg said:

Hmmm....my opinion on your thoughts (for what it's worth) is this.......I doubt there would be a factory serial number on this R3 block if were built as a warranty engine.....We know that Studebaker V8 replacement engines either had a 'cloverleaf' on the serial pad, or nothing there at all.

I also do not believe there would be a factory serial number stamped on it if it originally was , as you say, an "over the counter" engine....There would however be the Paxton stamped "B" number.

I'm quite sure that's the case ("B" number only) with George Krem's R3 engine, which he purchased from Studebaker for his 'Plain Brown Wrapper' years ago.

 

You make some good points, however there was no warranty on R3 engines (reference; Studebaker Sales Letter 161, 6/10/63). 

[mfg]

37 minutes ago, studegary said:

 there was no warranty on R3 engines. 

Yes, that's true.....so I guess if one of the ten 'factory production' R3 powered Studebakers (or even the one and only R4 'production' Daytona) had a low mileage engine failure, the original owners of these rare cars would have been ON THEIR OWN!!

So,  there's no reason for a 'factory' serial number to have been stamped onto Rags63 R3 engine other than Stude's intention to use that engine in a vehicle which they (unfortunately) ran out of time to build...... A "B" Paxton number..... 'yes'..............A Studebaker factory engine serial number.....'no'!

 

 

 

[PackardV8]

South Bend urban legend has it there were twenty-five R3s built by Paxton and shipped to Production.  Paxton was hard at work on building the next twenty-five when Studebaker called it off.  Paxton managed to gather up most of the left-over engines and R3 parts and ship them back to CA.  They were then sold over the counter.

Only slightly OT, but there's some evidence a Seattle guy with Stude connections grabbed a truckload of complete R2 engines at scrap prices and shipped them to Puget Sound.  Most were installed in boats, where they died a quick death.  The R2s in boats ran strong, but were not durable at long full power full load running, as is common in boats.

jack vines

Edited July 5, 2020 by PackardV8