Avanti83
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Posts posted by Avanti83
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FWIW, I consider myself hard core school, didn't own an AC car for the first fifteen years I drove. However, IMHO, an Avanti without AC isn't habitable. Even with doing all the necessary mods; the later transmission tunnel ventilation kit, careful sealing of the firewall and lining with insulation/sound deadener, on a hot day it will still be like driving a sauna.
AC can and has been added to R2 cars. Todays smaller compressors and the aftermarket kits make the job much easier. Your results may vary.
jack vines
I'm inclined to agree as when I first purchased my 83 you could put your hand on the carpet and it felt dang warm on the firewall and floor, certainly "sauna like". When I tore the interior out of it I plugged every hole I could find and added two layers of Fat Mat to the firewall,console and front floors and that helped as the floor is much cooler. Judy and I took a 100 mile sorte to the local Avanti Zone Meet last summer in 93 deg weather. It was was tolerable at 70+ MPH with the windows down and all vents open but I'm leaving room on the front of the SBC in my 74 just in case I like it better than the 83. One of them is getting AC.
Just from an overall comfort standpoint, AC has to be one of the better adds to an Avanti.
Bob
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Rationalize my arse!! All you did was make a nice vehicle into a really great vehicle. It obviously drives better, stops better, looks better and is a lot more comfortable. What more could one wish for in an Avanti.
The only problem I see is way to few pictures. Nicely done.
Bob
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Good Luck and be sure to post pictures.
Bob
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hi, Im the one who posted the ad on ebay. Ive rebuilt old cars for over 30 years, Im mostly used to the torque boxes on 65 and up mustangs which are truley structural. When I looked as the "hog troughs" the first question I asked was these are just stamped sheet metal not even channeled or boxed , all they look like are body fillers, so how can they be structural? I called Dan at Nostagic Motors for the facts. With over 40 years experience he knows more then any hobbiest thinks they knows about these parts. His reply was simple, most people do not understand the function of the throughs, they are there for side impact protection (which can be replicated with welded tubing running out from the frame and along the body, rather then a 6K replacement) and for a place to mount the roll bar to, otherwise in a rollover the roll bar would go through the bottom of the car.
so, being new to avantis, who am I going to listen to? half-baked hobbiests who think these are "torque boxes" or the man who worked for studebaker and has 40 years experience?
the same is true in the mustang world, a myth is started and no one steps back and says , hey, that doesn't make any sense."
my car has no troughs, it is not sagging, the door open and close just fine.
to add fuel to the fire dan also told me most people are just as wrong about the rear cross member, its job is not strucural or to support the body, its there to protect people in the event of a side impasct ( to keep the rear from accordianing ) and from a rear impact.
so there you go.
KD
I have not worked for Avanti/Studebaker nor been in the business of repairing them but I have stayed at a Holiday Express and have rebuilt a couple of Avanti's.
If the rear cross member has only the function to support the rear tire area, Why did the entire body fall on the frame when I cut it out to replace it. It did so because the PO had installed 6" X 2" thin wall rectangular tubing to replace the hog troughs that had rusted out. I removed them to install OEM style hog troughs which left the rear crossmember as the only support holding the body off the frame other than the front mounts.
The hog troughs support the roll bar and are the mounting point for six of the frame to body mounts. The Avanti body does not set on the frame, as the mounts hold it about 3/4" above the frame. They also stiffen the rocker panel area as they are bonded to them.
I'm not here to argue but I do have enough experience with underpinnings of an Avanti and enough Avanti undercarriage smutz on me to be some what knowledgeable about those areas.
Let's be clear, The hog troughs are very important to the support of the Avanti body and roll bar to the frame. If your proposal is to replace those functions by some other method then all is good, as I can see that there could be several approaches that will work. I came up with a couple before I was offered an OEM set of hog troughs at a very affordable price.
I've dealt with Dan on a few occasions and find him extremely knowledgeable about all things Avanti. I'm assuming a communication issue here.
If you ever get to Bay City, Michigan let me know. I'll put the 83 or 74 on the hoist and be happy to point out the function of the hog troughs and what needs to be done to accomplish there function. There is no way that an Avanti will function as a driveable vehicle without the functions of the hog troughs or some form of replacement support.
And this is experience that you can take to the bank, Bob
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Joe
Good plan.
Interesting data point though. I found the specs for 1975 and they say the standard gearing is 3:54 with 3:73 and 3:31 as optional.
The 3:70 (3:73) you have should be a great choice with the 700R4.
Bob
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Joe
Your diff has been opened at on time I'll bet as the tags are missing from the bolts. Based on that, We can't be sure what's inside.
My 74 came with a 3:23 ration although it is a four-speed car. In the emissions era 3:70 was unusual. To find out you could either pull the cover and count the teeth or just drive it at 60 MPH and note the RPM. Be sure to use a GPS for speed. Just Google calculate rear ratio, you'll find a lot of calculators that will ask for that data and rear tire diameter and give the ratio.
In any case, the gears are the cheapest thing to change. If you like the ratio you have, just replace it. A set of Richmond gears is $150 or so. The posi is about $350 - 400 if you use an Auburn unit like I did in my 83. The bearing and seals are in the $125 range so that will give you a parts cost for the differential. All pretty standard 44 parts. So you either use aftermarket parts Like I did or go to Avanti guys like Nostalgic Motors.
The axle bearing and seals at the backing plates get interesting. When I tore my 74 rear end apart it was a 6-bolt configuration not the expected 4-bolt setup at the axle flanges. It's not a big deal but I had to order a 1982 or so IH Scout II set of bearings and seals. Less than $100. They worked perfect.
That should get you started on the correct road but another option I would suggest that you can do is just drop the Avanti off and let them tear it apart. The parts are only a day or two away and they will have the bearing and seal numbers directly of the parts.
Lastly, if you don't like the rear ratio just talk to the shop about changing it to a better number.
Bob
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I am interested in adding cruise control to my '78. Has anyone BTDT? Anyone know what the source was for the cruise control that was offered at that time? Anyone got a parts car of that vintage, and interested in selling the cruise control?
Jim
I used this Rostra unit on my 83 Avanti. It works well, doesn't need vacuum (which is important to me) and has a variety of control switches for most applications. The 83 had a OEM setup installed but was non-functional so I liked this one better.
I will put one in my 74 just like it but will the GM wiper/cruise stalk control switch modified to fit the column as I will be converting the Avanti to a late model Camaro wiper motor also.
http://www.amazon.co...3/dp/B007ZCQD9S
The switch will look something like this. http://www.ebay.com/...ssories&vxp=mtr
Bob
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Warren
I don't think you'll be under there with a cutting wheel as there's very little room. I can't be sure about removing the radiator or not as I took everything out before I removed the cow catcher. You'll need to take a look but I think it would be easier and safer with the radiator out. It's not that hard to get the radiator out. Before you do that though, see if a sawzall would work.
I didn't take the cow catcher apart before I removed it. That worked out fine as I needed to whack it a few times to get it loose. It fits tightly on the frame.
I wish I could be more specific but the 74 is setting in the polebarn so I could get a couple of pictures if you wish. It will be gone for a while in mid-january for painting though.
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The cow catcher mounts also act as the radiator supports so I marked just in front of the radiator mounts and cut them at an angle after I removed them. The bumper bolts hold them on. No reason you couldn't make them long enough to mount the fog lights. I them reinstalled them and they are hard to notice when painted frame color particularly in the position they are in.
I'm not a fan of the fog lights so I left mine off. I bought some 1/8" stainless steel rod that will fill the spaces in the grill when I weld them in.
It's a pretty straight forward job.
Bob
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KD1
I wasn't being sensitive, I lost that years ago, but wanted to reiterate my point that the HT's provide a lot of support and with them missing the body's only support is the front body mounts which a quite strong as they are part of the firewall and a single rear support in the middle of the trunk floor which is quite weak. I'm sure it will fail and leave the frame as the contact points for the body.
My suggestion was to have a local sheet metal shop bend a set of HT replacements to support the body. They would just be a flanged "U" shape that would be pop riveted like the troughs and provide a mounting for the body/frame attachments. They would just be a simple form, easily bent by the local shop and cheap also.
You could also just use lengths of thin wall rectangular tubing and shim the mounts like the previous owner of my 74.
The rest was the fact that I am not rich and do anything I can to keep costs under control as I build my Dream Cars.
No harm, no foul, Bob
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bob, if I was putting big horsepower in any car Id beef up the frame too, all Im saying is rather then blindly tossing 4-5K into replaceing the troughs because thats what everyone else does, maybe its time to take a fresh look at alternatives (( L or U channels for example) rather then going through everything it takes to replace a part that may not actually need to be replaced by the same exact part that has already proven to be a bad design, especially in light of the cost and work involved.
In any sport a certain tunnel vision sets in, its true on all the other sites you go to, people have something in thier minds and when someone comes along with a fresh look at a resolution the fur flies. Go to any of the other sites, the MG site for example, the dogleg frames on the "B" all rust out, in the same spot, the "fix" was to replace the dogleg with an exact replacement, which in a few years, rusted out again, the debate was a different way to fix the problem. any outsider ( like me, I dont have a MG
who looked at the debate saw the problem for what it was, doing everything that everyone has done in the past and wonder why the problem is still there.I for one am not going to spend 5K recreating the same mistake the factory made, namely installing a part that is guarenteed to fail and takes a huge effort to replace, why would you? if it failed before, it will fail again, why not take a better (different) approach to solving the problem? If you are putting a 400 HP engine in your car its obvious that is not going to hurt its value, would fixing the throughs in a better manner lesson the value of the car if its a better way to do it?
KD1
I didn't say to put them in at a cost equivalent to purchasing the vehicle. What I hope I conveyed was the thought that there needs to be support between the body and the body mounts on the frame spread over a decent area. My total cost was under $600 for my 74.
If I had not found a decent buy on the troughs, I would have fabricated them from 16 ga sheet metal like I did on my 54K Studebaker.
Without that support the total body weight in the rear is held by the support in the middle of the trunk and, eventually, by the frame as that mount fails.
If you have no fabrication skills or no place to do it, Draw up a flanged U-shaped box and take that to a local sheet metal fabricator. We have a couple here in my small corner of the world and for a couple hundred bucks you can have a viable replacement that will have required a few bends to make. That will be cheaper that buying thin wall rectangular tubing in the correct dimensions.
As I said, I'm not a structural engineer but I've had enough Avanti smutz fall on me and in my eyes to know that some support is necessary.
In any case, I never worry about resale on my cars. I buy 'em cheap, build 'em the way I want to drive 'em and sell them when I want something else. I've never lost a dime on the sale of the past ones, (AH 3000, 72 Bronco, 70 GT-6, 39 Ford Coupe, Fiat 850 Coupe). But if I had charged myself labor, I'd be in the poor house so I'm pretty good at resolving issues outside the box.
The total 383 SBC stroker and T-56 trans setup in the 74 will come in at less than $2100 total cost due to Craigslist including a new flywheel, clutch/pressure plate assembly and hydraulics so you don't need to spend a ton to keep these little devils on the road.
All that aside, it continues to be JMHO that it's important to support the body in a reasonable fashion.
Besides, the torque boxes on the Avantis lasted a lot longer than the rockers and frame on my 2000 Silverado so I'm not so sure about the failed engineering label on them.
In any case, I'm not creating flying fur, just making a case for adding some form of support to replace the rotted structure.
Again, YCYMYTL, Bob
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I admit, Im new to Avantis but not new to restoring classic cars. I have over 40 years experience bringing old classics back to life so I have to ask...why bother? Ive replaced dozens of mustang torque boxes because they were actually structural, as far as I can tell these sheet metal hog troughs are no more then splash shields. Ive read several articles from respected avanti guys who also question the need for all the work needed to replace these parts. The '80 avanti I bought lost its throughs within 10 years of driving in Illinois' salt covered roads and now, 20 something years later the body has no cracks, the doors open and close just fine. Ive looked at replacement troughs and for the life of me I can't see were they add anything that a "L" channel or "U" channel wouldn't do far better and way easier. The Lark frame appears to be more then adaquate in supporting the body. Of course a "purist" would probably recall in horror but why does everyone automatically assume these parts MUST be replaced? Why? Can you actually proove these are structural? Call me crazy but if it aint broke why fix it? all Im going to do is remove the little that's left of the original parts, run a "L" channel front to back paint it and be done with it.
If what you mean by L-channel is a support that takes the load of the three (per side) body mounts then you could possibly be OK. If it is only cosmetic then the total load of the body in the rear is supported by the rear cross member and it won't hold up long doing that.
The hog troughs also give the glass floor a lot of support as I could see when it disassembled mine.
Here is what the original owner did to replace the HT's on my 74. If you look closely you will see that the frame does not touch the body when the hog troughs are in place. That is the job of the hog troughs.
I can't comment on your tolerance for "good enough" but by looking under my two Avanti's I would never run them without some form of structural support between the body and the frame mounts.. I intended to build my own originally but got a great deal on a couple from an SDC forum member and installed same.
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It seemed to keep the body from cracking and the doors fit ok but I'm putting over 400 HP to it in the future and want all of the strength I can muster. Now that the new HT's are installed the rigidity of the floors and body are substantially improved.
I'm not a structural engineer but I've been up close and personal with two of these and would never let the body be mounted without some form of large area support.
To paraphrase another poster, Your Car, Your Money, Your Tolerance Level.
Bob
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When my Avanti was repaired the fiber glass expect said that he had to get a specific type of resin for automotive use, he picked it up at an auto body shop and it had a car on the label.
Jim Wood
Jim
Just for the record. This is the Bondo resin I have used for years. They claim that it is for all types of fiberglass construction including boats.
http://bondo.com/bon...-resin-404.html
IIRC though, the newer vettes and other vehicles are SMC (sheet molding compound) and should take a completely different resin.
If he uses a different resin, I'd be curious what he uses. It's never to late for me to learn new tricks.
Bob
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I have been using the Bondo Fiberglass resin on my Avanti's. As opposed to the fillers, most fiberglass resin is purchased from larger Chemical Companies and, I'll bet, there is very little difference between the resins sold. On the other hand, I do not like Bondo fillers and do not know of anyone that recommends them.
BTW, if all you were looking for was materials and a brief description, let us know next time and it will save me a long period of typing out unnecessary details.
Bob
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I just finished the body repair on my 74 Avanti, so I have experience with the repairing but not the longevity. So here's what I did.
You need to vee out any cracks. If they are small and don't go all the way through, you need to get below the crack area to remove any stress risers,
If the cracks go all the way through, you still need to vee the surface and grind the the back side to receive glass fabric and resin. Cut the glass fiber to be much wider than the crack, spread catalyzed resin over the area and then apply the glass fiber and spread resin to fully wet the repair.
When the back side is done, fill and sand the vee'd side, the same way you would fill any crack. CAUTION!!!!!! Don't just use body filler, use Evercoat Vette adhesive/filler to fill the crack, It grips like grim death and sands pretty well. You can use regular fillers over that, I like the Evercoat Rage Gold fillers.
If you are bonding fiberglass panels together use West Systems six10 gel filler adhesive. I use it to bond the hog troughs to the bonding strips, works great.
A few more hints. Use Nitrile gloves to handle the resin. I went to our local restaurant supplier and bought a number of 16 oz plastic glasses for mixing, be sure they are not polystyrene ( cups will have a "6" and PS as the recycle code ) the resin will dissolve them. Use gloves and glasses when you grind, glass fibers itch like heck. Use disposable bristle brushes to spread the resin
And most importantly, any sanding needs to be done with a sanding block. Your hand will leave low areas. Remember, there is no metal to slow down the cutting action while sanding.
It's not rocket science but clean, roughened surfaces are necessary for quality work and there is no place for cheap substitutes on resin and fillers. Give it a try and ask more questions if necessary.
Bob
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The RQB3108 is correct for an 80 Avanti. If it matches the door post serial number, which I'll bet it does, just go to your state office with the title and have them change the date. I'll bet it's not a big deal, a mismatched serial number would be much worse.
Type Avanti Registry into Google and print out some of the numbers from the 80's RQB numbers to show it's an 80 and take that and the build sheet with you.
The build sheet is potentially your saving grace.
Good Luck, Bob
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I'm a fan of the Magnaflow stainless glaspack ovals. They have a set of 11215's on my 83. Nice low (muscle car) rumble that's liveable. Mine is a 355 SBC so yours would sound different but, let me suggest, that you visit the muffler producers sites and listen to the video examples they post on the sound of their mufflers.
That may not give you the exact sound your's will make but you will hear the type sound they produce and get an idea of the differences and the level of sound you can expect.
Bob
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Bill
You idea certainly has merit but just a couple of thoughts. The 4/5 point harnesses have no give and are made to restrain you during racing events. They don't give much wiggle room as one motors down the highway. I installed a roll bar in my 54K and installed Sparco 4 point belts. They look great but for long trips, I'll change them back to 3 point when my Avanti fetish is over.
I just looked at my 74 which is stripped for painting. The upper belt mount is welded to the steel B pillar on the inside. However, the B pillar is covered by the stainless trim on the outside so a mount could be fabed and installed from the outside. Not a trivial exercise as I don't recall if I removed the cover before or after the rear vent window. Going from the outside would only require a small hole in the interior trim for the bolt.
If necessary, I can take a closer look as the 74 has no interior.
Just a couple of thoughts, Bob
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It looks quite nice in the pix. The paint can be matched but I'd find a quality painter to do it. The newer paint color readers do a pretty good job on color and metal flake size. A good painter can match and blend quite well.
The 327 is a nice engine and appears to have an aftermarket intake, good. That probably means the original emissions pump and the rest of the early system are history. Also good.
Upholstery and color are an "Eye of the beholder" item. If you have had a chance to put some miles on it and like the way it drives then why not buy it.
I actually like the color and upholstery.
Good Luck
Avanti, Bob
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I guess I will go with the 2- 3 piece replacement if I can avoid disturbing the fiberglass. Also lifting the body a foot is a lot different than just trying to pick it up 2 or 3 inches.. Although the paint and body aren't great they are presentable at this time so I don't want to get into body work right now.
A good choice me thinks, there are several how-to articles to take the mystery out of it and because the one piece body makes lifting the body more difficult and potentially more prone to damage.
Good luck, Bob
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I don't have a copy of the new calendar, but I thought the car's owner was listed in the short blurb about each car shown. It has been in the past.
Well, Kick me in --- . I totally missed it, read the write up and right above it is his name. Now I can hope he's a member of one of the forums.
Gotta hang it closer to the desk and upgrade my reading skills. Thanks Bruce
Bob
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The 1963 Avanti (R-3922) shown as the feature car for November 2012 in the AOAI Calender has exactly the stance that I want on mine.
If the owner is a forum member or someone knows the owner, I'd like to know what it took to get this stance and how the car rides/handles compared to stock.
Thanks in advance, Bob
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I have a Mig welder. The welding isn't a problem. I guess the real question I should have asked is can I "cheat" the body removal with the full rocker support replacement? Lift the body without completely disconnecting steering column, wires and hoses? How much lift is needed with either to get the supports in??
Here's Dick Steinkamp's writeup on the three piece HT replacement. Not much lifting. http://hogtrough.blogspot.com/
With the one piece, I'd guess you would need close to a foot or better as you need to work the HT past the rockers and past the frame.
Bob
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I am getting ready for my winter projects and the replacement of the hog troughs is on the list. The 2 options Are the straight replacements or the 2 piece replacements which are about $400 more. Since both require unbolting the body to some degree I am wondering how much more trouble the original style is to do. I have all the tools including a 2 post lift and experience. Is the $400..00 difference worth the extra work sincer I have all the equipment? Do the originals get bonded into the rocker panel like the 2 piece or is this one of the big advantages of the 2 piece reeplacements?
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Tony
Bruce is correct about the rocker panel removal using the one piece throughs. I cut the rockers off my 74 to replace the troughs.
This is a couple of shots from the SDC forum of what it looked like. http://forum.studeba...nal-Hog-Troughs
This the follow up post on repairing the rockers. http://forum.studeba...ter-Hog-Troughs
If your body is in nice shape and you can weld then the extra $400 is probably worth it when you consider the cost of supplies and paint. My 74 needed a complete striping and painting so I went one piece. Well! I also got a great deal on the ones I used.
My lift made the job much easier, it would be much more difficult without it. The toughest part was getting the bolts out that are in the body behind the doors. Another post. http://forum.studeba...olt-removal To show the removal
Bob
Looking to buy - what do I need to know.
in 1963-64 Avanti
Posted · Edited by Avanti83
I just priced units at the Zephyr Hills Swap meet last week for my 74. The least expensive (US Made) was from Mike Brown (Rainbow Products) out of N.C.. He said the smaller unit would not be sufficient. The larger unit is $850 complete for SBC free shipping at show. Unit Dimensions 7"X8"X20". This is a unit with AC, Heat and Defrost. Looked pretty good.
Vintage Air was about $1200 or so but in either case you would need to check about brackets for a Stude Engine.
Mike handles both Vintage Air and the one I described above. Here's the link
http://www.rainbowpr...=140&Itemid=114
Here's a link to Bob Johnstones site about installing in an R2. Explore there as it is a wealth of info.
http://www.studebake.../AIR/r2air.html
Bob