WayneC
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Posts posted by WayneC
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Seems to me it might be smarter to make new wheels in 16" format, because it's become difficult to find decent tires in 15" sizes.
Here's one that is similar in style:
https://www.newstalgiawheel.com/shop/product/vn470-salt-flats-painted
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Re: post #4.... it's not clear to me what year Avanti's the replacement part pertains to, does anyone know?
It appears the part came from inside the PW motor, so did that include the original Ford T-Bird motor?
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You sound as though you know a bit about carbs... have you tried looking down the primary throat while jazzing the throttle linkage? You should get immediate strong double streams of gasoline squirting into the throat when you pull the throttle linkage.
If not, the accelerator pump is bad. That's a pretty simple fix. You can purchase an accelerator pump separate from an entire rebuild kit, but it does require removing the top of the carb, and it's easy to drop bits & pieces into the intake manifold, so best to remove the carb and make the fix off the car; it's also possible to break/ruin gaskets when disassembling a carb that's been installed for some time.
Have a look at this link: http://www.camaros.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-67610.html
If you are mechanically inclined, it's fairly easy to do a complete rebuild on a quadrajet with instructions that come with the kit, and there are websites that have instructions, even videos on youtube; for example...
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/How_to_rebuild_a_Rochester_Quadrajet_4MV_carburetor
I rebuilt the quadrajet on my '80 last year, using a kit from this vendor:
Unfortunately, the website I referred to for rebuild instructions is no longer available, but generally the instructions that come with a rebuild kit are sufficient. Take a lot of digital pics as you disassemble the carb, in case you need to refer to them later.
Be especially careful removing/installing the fuel inlet tube fitting, because the large, fine-thread fitting is easy to cross-thread and if you chew up the threads on the carb body, there's no easy home repair to fix that.
Here are some quotes from a Corvette expert ("Lars") in 2002 regarding problems he's seen with Q-jets stumbling off idle:
Jammed accelerator pump check ball
Results in: Off-idle stumble or hesitation, hard cold-start.
Comments: This is a common problem in carbs that have been allowed to “dry out” for a while. Sediment in the bottom of the fuel bowl will lock up the check ball as if it were set in concrete. This will prevent any accelerator pump discharge.
Accelerator Pump Rod Installed in Wrong Hole in Pump Arm
Results in: Off-idle stumble or hesitation.
Comments: There are two holes in the accelerator pump lever arm for the lever arm rod to engage into: Inner and Outer. The outer hole produces a leaner pump shot, and can cause a lean stumble on engines requiring a robust pump shot. Corvettes and performance cars always used the rich, inner pump arm hole.
Jammed accelerator pump
Results in: Off-idle stumble or hesitation, hard cold-start.
Comments: This is becoming a common problem. The alcohol additives in modern fuels are not compatible with the materials used in many accelerator pumps (even some of the pumps in brand new carb kits). This causes the pump plungers to swell up and to seize in the pump bore. The spring on the pump shaft still allows the shaft to move up and down, making it look as if the pump is functioning. But the pump itself can be seized up solid in the bore with the shaft working just fine. To fix this, you must install a pump that is specifically compatible with alcohol.
Worn accelerator pump
Results in: Off-idle stumble or hesitation, hard cold-start.
Comments: Common on older carbs and on carbs that have been allowed to dry out (vehicles stored without being started through the entire winter season). The rubber plunger material will dry out and shrivel up, making the accelerator pump completely ineffective. The pump must be replaced. -
See posts #75 and #87
I agree, we've all done something similar.
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I've not done this type of repair, but I also own a Corvette and I frequently peruse Corvette forums.
Recommendations depend on what areas are separating... around the edges, or the center cross-bracing.
Corvette hoods are produced as 2 panels (inner support structure and outer skin panel);
in this case those 2 panels are bonded at the factory with a bonding adhesive at the hood perimeter, and with scattered "gumdrop" spots of bonding adhesive between the center cross-bracing and the underside of the hood skin.
I know this one is generally recommended for full-surface bonding of panels on early corvettes (outer perimeter of hood):
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EVC0/870/N0481.oap?ck=Search_N0481_-1_-1&pt=N0481&ppt=C0171
Others can be used:
Ecklers bonding adhesive: http://www.ecklerscorvette.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=bonding+adhesive&x=0&y=0
West System epoxy & hardener: http://tinyurl.com/2vfxxul
On the center cross-bracing, the failing gumdrops are removed and surface remnants sanded off completely; these are recommendations for gumdrop replacement adhesives:
3m 5200 marine adhesive
a variety of Liquid Nails adhesive in a caulking gun tube that says it is for use with fiberglass)
ask local automotive paint supplier for a quality "hood gumdrop adhesive"
3M black urethane windshield bedding compound
Thorough cleaning/sanding of mating surfaces is particularly important underhood, because oils and fuels may have contacted the surfaces.
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It might be worth pulling the brake shoes on one side and installing the drum to see if it will rotate without the shoes. I know you said the drums slide over the shoes with just slight friction, but this is a fairly easy test to confirm the cause is definitely not the shoes. (it just doesn't seem likely that both drums would suddenly start rubbing on the backing plates just because they were R&R'd; more likely a shoe or a shoe adjustment piece/linkage has slipped out of its proper position/attachment)
Another test might be to shim the studs with very thin washers before installing the drum, to see if that frees the drum...
If so, eighth-inch shims for wheels are fairly common, perhaps the local FLAPS would have them for your bolt pattern (4 1/2"?), and thinner individual washer-shaped shims might be available as well, since they are common for disk brake caliper adjustment. But, hub shims might only be compensating for something that's out of position.
Might be possible to insert a long narrow strip of paper (maybe cut from a magazine cover) at the outer edge of the drum while installing the drum, then try to slide the paper around the perimeter after the wheel nuts are installed (no wheel) to see where/if interference occurs with the backing plate. But, I would think if you snug a drum down just enough that it barely drags, and rotate the drum a few turns, you might be able to discern rub marks on the backing plate when you remove the drums.
Here are a few hits I found with a Google search, but nothing really new in them...
http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/693314-front-drum-bind-when-tightened-lug-nuts.html
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I don't think I'd be beating on the backing plates, certainly not yet.
This is a dohh! guess: did you check to make sure the parking brake is not engaged?
More thoughts...
Is it possible there's some sort of indexing locator on the drum & hub to indicate the drum needs to be in a particular orientation with the hub (perhaps a raised bump on the hub that mates with a hole in the drum, or vice versa)? ...a mis-matched locator bump might cock the drum slightly and cause the drum to distort a bit when the wheel nuts are tightened. The Stude parts manual hub illustration on page 101 shows something on the stud circle that appears as though it could be a locator.
Have you tried installing one drum at a time and found it locks up with either drum (only one) installed?
You might read through the shop manual's rear brake section for clues and note things like making sure the shoes are engaged in the slots at the wheel cylinder.
If you didn't change the brake shoe adjustment, maybe try turning the brake shoe adjuster (top rear behind the backing plate) to loosen the fit (shoes further from the drum surface), install the drum and if the axle doesn't lock up, then adjust the brake shoes to be snug.
Maybe take the drums to a brake shop and have them checked for true and machined if needed (doesn't explain why it worked before removal, but is it possible drums were dropped on the garage floor after removal?)
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...post #66 "Get it all buttoned-up and back on the wheels and on the ground about 8:30 last night."
conflicts with your statement that the car "was and still is on jack stands"
More food for your own thought...
Does it lock up if you snug the wheel nuts without a wheel & tire in place, or only with the wheels in place?
(eg, is the problem related to the drum/axle or the wheel/tire?)
Does it lock up when either side wheel is installed, but the opposite wheel is not installed?
(eg, is the problem on one side or both sides?)
What suspension bushings did you replace and what is their proximity to the wheels & tires?
Is it possible that there is some latitude in how/where the rear spring is attached to the axle (or difference in the width of any new bushings used) that could cause the spring or bushing to contact a tire sidewall?
Is it possible you reversed a bolt on re-installing something, and now the nut end is where the bolt head used to be, so the bolt end is sticking out too far and contacting something?
Did you replace any old U-bolts with new U-bolts that might be longer than the old ones?
Since this car is new to you...
Are these the same wheels & tires you originally removed (from the same axle)? eg, is it possible the former owner installed wheels with different offsets, front wheels vs rear wheels (or rim widths or even wheel size) and you've reversed them by installing a wheel on the rear that formerly was on the front, and now the wheel or tire sidewall is contacting something (like the backing plate or the rear spring)?
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More thoughts...
Normally, front shoes are the shorter of the 2 shoes (less brake lining area), and/or sometimes narrower... is it possible you reversed the shoes when you re-installed them? There usually are raised "bumps" in the backing plate that properly position/align the shoes, so if you reversed wide and narrow shoes, you could cause interference between the drum and the wider shoe.
"Started the car, put it in reverse, no movement. Locked up tight."
...were the rear wheels back on the ground, or were you doing this while the car was still jacked off the ground? Posi rear ends give power to the wheel with the most traction, I'm not sure what they do when neither wheel has traction (equal power to both, or no power to either?). Yet, you do state that the wheel turns until the lug nuts are finger-tight, so it would seem that tightening the lug nuts is causing the stoppage (have you tried just pressing against the outside face of the drum without the nuts in place, while turning the drum, to see if that pressure prevents the drum from turning and perhaps learn by sound or feel where the rubbing or interference occurs
"Tried every combination of brake drums, wheel spacers, and wheels on both sides of the rear."
...Did that include placing the spacers inside of the drum rather than outside? (i.e. is it possible those spacers were inside the drum rather than outside... there may be marks or corrosion patterns that tell you where they were).
Seems like there ought to be a way to gently/incrementally snug the lug nuts, turning the drum each time, until it rubs something (just before it locks up), and then figure out by sound or feel what it's contacting (like perhaps the edge of the brake shoes) that keeps it from turning when the lug nuts are tightened further.
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I could be 'way off on this, because it's been many years since I've taken the rear drums off myself, and I'm having trouble visualizing the parts, but my guess is that it might have something to do with the axleshaft to hub key.
I think there's only one spot where the key mates with the drum, otherwise the drum could possibly cock and jam on the brake backing plate when the wheel nuts are snugged (ie, the orientation of the drum on the axle shaft must be in a particular position, whereas the wheel can go on in any of 5 orientations). Take a drum off, look at the mating line circle around the axleshaft where it enters the axle housing (as best you can) and I think you should see the end of a key sticking out, which should mate with a keyway in the drum's center hole. Perhaps snugging the drum down (when the wheel lug nuts are snugged) cocks the drum slightly and causes it to drag/jam.
I could be very mistaken and the key/keyway is so obvious that it cannot be a problem and you know positively both drums are installed correctly, but it's the only simple explanation I can come up with.
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Devildog, my notes say the rear brake cylinder kits are "Lockheed Wagner F8418" ... the "F8418" is likely an EIS industry standard part number that can be from multiple parts suppliers (Federal Mogul, Wagner, Bendix etc).
When I used Warren's link to Amazon, I found I had bought those same cylinders from Amazon back in 2009
and used them on my '80 Avanti.
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See the schematic below (which illustrates a leak in the front brake line... ignore that leak for this discussion).
Seems to me that if only the front M/C reservoir loses fluid, then it should not be leaking to the booster unit... I believe there are seals on the M/C piston that would have to be leaking from either both (front & rear) chambers, or the rear chamber only, in order for fluid to leak through to the booster. I suppose it would be possible for the front reservoir to empty first, and then the rear, if all the piston seals were leaking.
Normally the front (smaller) reservoir services the rear brakes, so you might want to trace the rear brake lines looking for leaks rather than the front lines. You may also need to remove the rear drums to look for fluid that got past the brake cylinder seals inside the wheel (although you may see traces of the leak externally at the inside rim of the drum, or damp lines running radially out on the inner tire sidewall).
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Devidog:
I believe it's the same kit as for a Jaguar E-type 2 1/8" bore (also used on Mark 2 Jags), but I think later XKE has a slightly larger bore (2 1/4"), which may require a different kit (or maybe not, I'm not sure).
I have a notation in my parts book that the front cylinder seal kit is Girling SP2556, about $40 for a 4-cylinder kit.
Probably any Avanti parts dealer can sell you the seal kits.
And just to muddy the water, here's an online vendor offering NOS front cylinders for $100 each
https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/store/s/agora.cgi?product=brk4&cart_id=4704.31055
(Apple price to resleeve your old cylinder in brass and add new seals is $95, which arguably may be the better option in the long run)...
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Just to add to the pictures, this is the M/C on my 1971 Avanti:
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Got a quick and courteous reply from "Lazar" at Apple Hydraulics (for brass resleeving)...
"(a) Take the cylinders off, take the pistons out and send us empty cylinders for resleeving. We return them cleaned, resleeved to original bore size (2.125") and ready for reassembly which you do with a kit you provide. Cost: $60 each cylinder
(Send us cylinders as they came off the caliper (with pistons still in). We return resleeved, cleaned, and assembled with new OEM seal kit, ready to bolt back on the caliper. Cost $95 each cylinder
© Send complete calipers. We will do (on each cylinder, clean the middle part and re-attach the cylinders. Cost: $285 each caliper ($190 to do two cylinders plus $95 for extra work). Add $30 each for new cross-over line installed.
Turnaround time is one week here, in the shop. You get same parts back (not exchange). For shipping from Calif.we recommend flat rate priority mail, it is half the cost and half the time compared to UPS. See http://postcalc.usps.com/ " -
Warren, my proportioning valve doesn't look like yours. I don't think it's been changed, as the car is a 1971 and I purchased it in 1978, I think, with about 40k miles on it at the time; it looked entirely stock. It had an engine change in the mid 1980's, and frame-on restoration around 1990. I've never messed with the proportioning valve, and I've done most of the mechanical and electrical work on this car myself since I've owned it.
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Thanks, Tony, I've heard of Apple Hydraulics.
Their website lists prices for brass resleeving of small-bore wheel cylinders at $50, or $85 to also rebuild with new seals.
I've sent them an email asking about prices on the Avanti cylinders; I'll post their answer here if they reply.
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Just realized I never did mention that my Avanti is a '71. I also own an '80.
Gunslinger, after some research I read that proportioning valves can do more than just warn you, they can actually shut off the side of the system that lost brake fluid pressure (dunno if my Avanti valve does that). And, I suppose it's possible for the valve to go bad, cutting off fluid to the front brakes. Even if the valve is not bad, but had purposely cut off fluid because of a leak in the front brake system (when I first started work on it, I did find the left front flex hose fitting was leaking), I wonder what restores the valve to it's normal position once it's been activated? Possibly by using the method Bob uses to pressure-bleed brakes from the brake cylinder end, thereby pushing the valve back to it's normal position? I'm not sure if that explains why I'm unable to vacuum bleed, though, I do get fluid, but always laced with bubbles. Actually, I think the MityVac may be able to perform that same reverse pressure-bleeding method, since it has a switch to change it from vacuum to pressure; I need to check the booklet that came with it.
In an eBay search, the closest physical appearance match I could find for the valve is one for a 1969 Corvette, but it's not a perfect cosmetic match, and the Vette has front and rear disks. Next closest valve I found was for a '67 to '70 Mopar, but the overall shape is not as close as the Vette and I couldn't find a picture showing the front side of that valve. Considering the Avanti master cylinder was a Chrysler design, I would expect the proportioning valve might be a Chrysler part as well (although there are also a couple of Ford master cylinders that can be used as Avanti replacements by adapting the brake line fitting sizes).
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Gunslinger, I overlooked this comment from you:
"Your car should have two blocks in the brake line...a distribution block which splits brake fluid to front and rear. You also have a proportioning valve which directs more fluid to the front than rear brakes since the front does most of the braking load. It's fixed, not adjustable so if there's a problem there it would have to be a clog in the line somewhere."
Actually there appear to be 2 pipes from the M/C, one to each side of the steel proportioning valve below the M/C, and 2 pipes coming out of the front of the proportioning valve, I assume one to the front brakes (with a junction block somewhere to send fluid to each front brake and each rear brake cyl). There is also a tube extending out of the front of the block with an electrical wire, I assume for a warning light. It is hard to see the block, I wish I had photographed it when I had the M/C out, but here is a photo of it installed...
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Warren, I looked at the Hyedracyl website, and it appears the 2 1/8" SS wheel cylinders are priced at $240 each... that's $85 more than the XKS wheel cylinders!
http://xks.com/i-6916970-gr-64932067ss-wheel-cylinder-2-1-8-stainless-steel.html
http://www.hyedracyl.com/etype.html
On your rear brake shoes... is it possible they had been installed in reverse (front shoe where rear shoe should be)?
As for front cylinders seizing... I first used my originals, which showed no sign of leakage, but then the brake shop put in the brand new set from my parts stash.
I live in sunny CA, corrosion is not much of an an issue here (sun & heat are the great enemies; I lived in Michigan through the 1970's decade, so I'm familiar with corrosion)
Brad, good point for readers; I am aware of the pushrod adjustment, and I did that adjustment when I installed the first M/C, and I double-checked the adjustment for the M/C that the brake shop installed.
Again, my issue appears to be air bubbles in the right front front brake hard line that I haven't been able to eliminate despite extensive bleeding, but it's hard to understand why only the right, and why the air bubbles persist (even when bleeding from the steel brake line itself, ahead of the flex hose), yet apparently no fluid leakage/loss when everything is connected and the brake pedal is pushed. Pedal is soft, but not sinking.
When bleeding with the pedal-pump method, there was no sinking pedal with the wheel cylinder bleed valves closed, but the pedal was kinda spongy & middling height and never did reach the expected high & hard condition.
When I had the car on the road after the brake shop worked on it, the braking was so weak as to be downright scary to me; locking the wheels would have been impossible. The braking was fine before the car was left sitting a few years.
I did find a 5-year-old quote on stainless re-sleeving by "Karps Power Brake" in CA (east of L.A.)... it was $60 each + shipping both ways. Likely more now. I would also need to buy & install seal kits. http://www.karpspowerbrake.com/
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Appreciate your thoughts, Gunslinger.
I've owned and worked on five different Avanti's since the mid-70's. I've owned this Avanti since about 1979. I converted all of them to silicone fluid, bleeding never was a problem, nor was it on this Avanti until now. Like I said, the car sat for quite a while, and when I started getting it roadworthy again the M/C was empty, so I put in a rebuilt one (and the shop I took it to later changed-out my "new" one for a second rebuilt M/C, thus my concern over their competency). But I had trouble bleeding the right front brake, which is why I ended up having it transported it to a brake shop. I spent several long bleeding sessions over the course of a week (using manual pedal-pump AND MityVac, wore my hand muscles out squeezing the MityVac) before I gave up on it. Considering that after I got it back from the shop and found it still braked very poorly, and that I couldn't bleed it at the line end upstream of the right flex hose, and that I'm not losing fluid or seeing bubbles in the M/C reservoir, I don't think I can blame the RF cylinders or the booster for the bubbles.
I'm aware of inferior brake pad issues, I've had them, so I generally buy pads from Nostalgic. But brake pads have nothing to do with my not getting a hard pedal or my inability to bleed the right front. If the booster were leaking air into the brake system somehow, I would expect the bleeding issue to show up in the left front first (not the right), and I'd also expect the reservoir fluid level to go down. I consider the inability to bleed to be a key symptom.
I will check the booster... that's a possibility I hadn't explored.... but I never did get a good high, hard pedal, which I blamed on my inability to properly bleed the front right brake. Just trying to figure out why I can't get it bled properly. Booster shouldn't enter into that... I don't seem to be losing fluid, nor am I seeing bubbles in the M/C reservoir. Last issue I had with a booster was on this car, and it manifested itself in a high pedal with the front brakes being partially applied all the time; a booster rebuild solved that. I could just get the booster rebuilt again, but I think that's just throwing parts at the problem rather than solving it.
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Good point, Gunslinger... according to their price list, for about $650 + shipping you get calipers, rotors, pads and hoses; and if I'm interpreting the installation instructions properly, the only parts you need supply are some grease seals, and you must machine a tab off the supplied GM calipers (wonder why Turner doesn't do that step, and supply the seals with the kit?).
New XKS stainless brake cylinders alone would run $600.
Don't know the price for re-sleeving my originals.
It's not an immediate need, I recently installed a set of new wheel cylinders and flex hoses I had in my parts stash and I was thinking about having the old wheel cylinders re-sleeved.
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Actually, I'm having a weird issue with the brakes (the car has been sitting for several years)... probably too complicated to go into here, but after replacing the front pads and a leaking master cylinder, I had difficulty bleeding the brakes (both pedal-pump method and MityVac) so I had the car towed to a brake shop. I supplied them with all the parts I had in my stash, and they installed a (second) rebuilt master cylinder, new rear shoes, and new front cylinders... pretty much everything!
When I picked up the car they said that the rear brakes were squeaking and that the brakes didn't feel quite right but that I should drive the car for awhile to see if it would "wear in". It didn't, and in fact braking was so weak it felt to me like only the rears were working. I had to leave on an extended trip and didn't get the car back to the shop. On my return months later, I tried again to bleed the front brakes, but was unsuccessful bleeding the right front; I even tried bleeding the line before the flexible hose, using the MityVac, and that didn't work (never got solid fluid). So apparently I have a problem upstream, somewhere between the master cylinder and the flex hose.
Since I don't seem to have a fluid leak (the M/C stays full), and since the car doesn't pull to the left when braking, I am baffled.
I now don't trust the shop, their expertise seems to be just replacing parts, so I haven't had the car transported back to them.
I have very little knowledge about how a proportioning valve works.
Descriptions of proportioning valves seem to tell you what they do, but not how they do it.
Since I don't seem to have a fluid leak, is it possible the proportioning valve is simply not directing any pressure to the front brakes? Didn't see a warning light, but the light could be non-op.
That still may not explain why I can bleed the left front, but not the right front.
Possibly an air leak in the hard line to the right brake that doesn't affect the left brake?
...But then, why wouldn't I get a profuse fluid leak when pressing the brake pedal?
Hard to see much with the car parked on my sloped driveway, I assume there is a splitter in the front brake line between the proportioning valve and the brakes, I just don't know where it is.
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Anyone had their stock front brake cylinders relined recently?
Where did you send them?
Stainless or brass?
Cost?
Thanks,
Wayne
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Having never attempted it, I can't really comment, but I'm curious: what were the other methods you'd heard about?
I probably would have tried to use something with a hook, sort of an ice pick with it's pointed end bent back on itself, to pull/stretch the spring and finesse it onto the anchoring tab.
What you did seems to have worked out fine and didn't require any special tools (the extra set of hands might be an issue for me, though).
Questions regarding my 1978 Avanti
in 1965-83 Avanti
Posted · Edited by WayneC
Have a look at this Corvette forum thread:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-and-c2-corvettes/2813678-stripping-old-paint-from-fiberglass-corvette.html
In addition to recommendations on chemical strippers, there is a link to a video showing razor blade stripping,
which has lately become a common method.
A Google search returned these paint references:
http://www.expresspaint.com/automotivetouchup/pc/GM-Damson-Plum-Firemist-Metallic-21p16764.htm
http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?style=print&color=Damson%20Plum%20Firemist&rows=50&sort=gmcode