Running on 3 cylinders

[StudeNorm]

So I ran into a problem returning from a car show Saturday. Upon entering an on-ramp I dropped into 3rd and accelerated to about 80 when I started feeling the engine cutting back on power. This was not a full shut-down but a drop-out of a number of cylinders. It came as pulses of 1 second on partial then a second on full then back to partial and so on for about 20 seconds then a complete drop to partial. I managed to keep it running until I got home but it was GUTLESS. It stayed idling when stopped but I could only hear about 3 or 4 cylinders firing. It was painful coaxing it up onto the hoist. I installed a new electronic distributor and coil a short while ago so I suppose the first check is to install the old dizzy back on the engine. I will post results as I get things done.

 

Later.

[murph the surf]

Sounds similar to when I had a  clogged fuel filter that trash in the tank was causing.

 

[StudeNorm]

Thanks for the reply, Murph the Smurf. I do listen.

So before I pulled the dizzy I got out my timing light and clipped it to each plug lead, not to look at timing but to see if I was getting steady spark pulses. Results... every plug was sparking as it was supposed to so I will be replacing the in-line fuel filter next. If that doesn't prove out I will have to consider the carb.

A buddy dropped by earlier this evening and after talking about my woes he told me he had a new-in box Edelbrock 1406 (or maybe 1403). I traded him on the spot for an air powered flooring nailer I used years ago to put in my hardwood floors and will probably never use again, so that worked out pretty good (damn CASO in me, LOL). I can now look seriously at converting my 3507S carb to a modern version using this trade up. I am sure I saw references to this conversion on Bob's site.

Even if the fuel filter proves to be the culprit I still may do the carb thing over the winter...

I have a new fuel pump from Dave T recently installed so that, as much as it is also a consideration, is closer to the bottom of the list.

Later.

[StudeNorm]

I'm baaaack.

Took the fuel filter off and dumped out a pile of crud. I would post a pic but this site has me limited to 700K file size (whaaat?). It seems those in-line filters really do work as advertised. As stated earlier I will pick up a new filter on the morrow and fire the beast up when installed.

I am now on my phone and don't have the easy editing capability for reducing file size. So does this mean if I want to post new pics I have to delete previous photos?

Edited: pic posted.

Once again, later, and thanks...

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by StudeNorm
pic added

[murph the surf]

StudeNorm,I had to end up removing and cleaning the gas tank in mine-you might consider,at a minimum,at least cycling and draining a few gallons of gas through the tank several times.The tank is undoubtedly where the sediment is coming from.

[StudeNorm]

I almost want to install a Diesel style pre-filter in the line before the fuel pump. I will see what I can come up with.

[dynolou2]

Is there any chance that your car still has the origional rubber fuel line? with todays gasohol unless you are using  compatable  fuel line what you see could be deteriorated  rubber fuel line.  I use the fuel injection  hose that is made for gasohol.  The Avanti has rubber line at the tank, possibly at the kick up area and at the pump and fuel filter.   Lou cote

[StudeNorm]

I am going to address the fuel line at the tank when I return from the north this weekend. I have replaced the rubber lines at the fuel pump. The tank itself may be next. The particles I am seeing are very fine and blow away when the absorbant mat I dump them on dries out. Later.

[StudeNorm]

OK, so I am back from the far north.

Fuel tank line has been changed years ago for a clear TYGON style so no chance of crud coming form there. I installed new filter and drove to a small gathering of Stude folks last weekend. The car ran OK on the way but started stumbling on the way home. Maybe 10 miles on new filter. Got home and pulled filter. No crud in this one so replaced and tried to get to a car show this weekend. Made it maybe 5 miles and stumbling started again. It is a pulsing type miss.One secong of smooth followed by about a second of missing cylinders followed again by a second of good, etc. until it finally starts to run mostly on missing cylinders. It is worse the more I put my foot into it such as climbing a steep hill.

This has me stumped... Do I modify the 1406 carb I just received to accept blower pressure and the 3507S carb hat or should I replace the dizzy with the Delco type I gave a minor rebuild to? So long as I get it done before Tacoma, it seems all I need is time, and right now that is starting to become a rare commodity.

Edited June 25, 2018 by StudeNorm

[studegary]

It sounds to me like an ignition problem, possibly a coil that is breaking down when it gets heated.  

[StudeNorm]

Coil may be the easiest fix to try. I will install the original with the ballast resister and see where it gets me... Thanks.

[mfg]

I like the idea of two fuel filters on cars (like Studebaker Avantis) that have the outlet at the bottom center of the fuel tank, as opposed to a more normal pick up tube setup.

On my '63 I installed an inline fuel filter (for 3/8" line) just ahead of the fuel pump, while also retaining the stock fuel filter between the fuel pump and carb......I change out these two filters annually!

[StudeNorm]

I have to agree with mfg that a filter before the pump is a good idea. I am not certain how to fit it between the end of the steel line and the pump but when I get some time (there is that word again) I might see about installing a stainless line in behind the rad and routing it back up to the pump. Still haven't changed out the coil and might not get to it until I get back from a 'working' holiday starting Friday and returning for the last week of July. 

Three weeks away from the car is going to be tough but I need it in order to lay the groundwork for the new shop I will be building at our retirement property.  Later...

[StudeNorm]

So I found some time between making pickled eggs and packing the trailer... I re-installed the ballast resistor and went for a drive. The car acted great, but it was still cold. Drove down the hiway and through the river valley and all was OK. Drove back and as I was entering the valley my spidey senses were going off. This didn't feel good. As I tried to drive up out of the valley the car started chugging and losing power to the point of I had to drop into second before I got to the top. 

I crawled it back in my garage and noticed(!) it wouldn't even rev up. I pushed it to get some revs and it back-fired big time so I shut it down. I immediately popped the hood and removed the carb hat. Gave it two shots on the throttle while viewing with a light and there was NOTHING! No fuel from accel pump. Carb was dry. Pulled the filter off at carb side and got a gush of fuel. Put the filter end in a bottle and cranked the engine. It started right away and I got 5 ounces of fuel in about 5 seconds at idle. Pump works. Hooked everything back up and started car. Climbed on fender to get a good look down the throat and noticed a strange sight. There was fuel dribbling into the throat on the right side and nothing on the left. Revved it up and more showing up on the right but still nothing on the left. Shut down and tried to see if any accel pump action. None. Seems the left side of the carb has a stuck closed float. What? MY Carb is POOCHED. 

Anybody got a bolt on FI system for the R2? I want one!

Thanks for listening to this long drawn out saga.

Edited June 28, 2018 by StudeNorm

[Gunslinger]

There are a number of fuel injection units available that are not car- or engine-specific...they bolt onto a four barrel manifold.  You would have to get a different bonnet for the blower hose as the carburetor bonnet on an R2 is 4 1/4" diameter and current standard is 5 1/8" diameter.  Take a look at Summit Racing or Jeg's and see all that's available.  

You can always have your carburetor rebuilt.  Some of the Studebaker vendors offer the service and quick turnaround.  That's the less expensive and least troublesome way to go.  I do understand the appeal of fuel injection...I have Edelbrock EFI on my Avanti II and it works very well.  

[StudeNorm]

Thanks, Gunslinger. I took a look at Summit and noticed pretty much all the FI systems said 'not for forced air systems'. Probably something to do with needing a 2 bar mass air sensor, or some such thing. I did see a bolt on FI system being installed on a turbo'd SBC on one episode of "Engine Power" but something says Cubic Dollars for that system. Being the CASO that I am I will have to do a bit more research first. As for quick turn-around... I am north of the border and would love to send my carb to Dave T or Jon M or Mr. Erb but I am not sure it would make it through all the hoops and back in time for Tacoma so now I have decisions to make. Unfortunately I am away on 3 weeks holidays starting tomorrow, hence the reference to packing the trailer.  I have a new 1406 Edelbrock carb that I am considering modifying for pressure but that won't happen until I get back. I love high maintenance cars!!!

[Avanti83]

My Holley EFI will do forced air as will Jeff Rice's DEEPNHOCK EFI unit on the SDC site. I don't recall what he used but it's easy to find over there. I think I'd call a few companies and talk to their customer support folks and see what they offer for your application. I had excellent luck with the Holley EFI support folks when I talked to them.

[StudeNorm]

Back from "holidays"... I need to get back to work so I can relax a bit. Clearing out a small forest with only a chain saw was not easy! I am sure I carried out about 8000 lbs of logs by hand.

So I pulled the carb last night and took the top off. I found my problem right away and I am a bit humbled but must say the problem was me... It seems I didn't tighten down the new Daytona style valve seats enough and the assemblies started backing out. This resulted in the floats closing the valve and shutting off fuel flow when the bowls were nearly empty. I am not sure how I missed that but have a sneaking suspicion that rebuilding the carb at one in the morning might have had something to do with it. Oh well. Lets just say lesson learned.

I took it for a quick test drive and backed out of the throttle at a solid buck twenty. It starts and idles nice but I still get an occasional wiff of fuel so may need to give it a quick once over again. Never seems to end.

So now on to my latest issue. I had the windows rolled down while I was away and when I was on my test drive I tried rolling up the passenger window... No go. When I got home I had to give it a bit of a pull to help get it moving so I may not be opening it again soon. At least not for a year or so.

Thanks for the EFI info, Avanti 83. Since my latest rebuild seems to have fixed my problem I am hoping that I can keep the car together and drivable until we get moved into our new home next year where I will have a "proper" shop waiting for me. That was the reason for clearing the trees.

Later.

[Devildog]

Norm, just to reinforce Avanti 83 comments, these modern EFI throttle body carb swaps are easy and dependable. I installed a Powerjection III on my 75 Avanti 400 SBC. The Edlebrock, Holley etc. are all good.  The biggest job to installing these on classic car is installing a fuel return line...I believe your R2 already has a fuel return line. 

Need a mounting adapter because these EFIs are are more modern 'square' bolt pattern, Carter AFB is different; but that should not be a big problem. Maybe even a phenolic spacer can be made an adaptor.

These modern units are designed to use turbo/super chargers, they have the mass flow sensor built in. They basically will run out of the box with a few basic point->click settings such as cu. in. etc.  The units will 'learn' and program themselves based on driving patterns. All I did with mine was with one point->click lean the mixture by 1% over a several months until I lost a little performance then added back 1%.

I have driven it 10,000 miles from Houston to annual meets in St. Louis, KC, and South Bend with no problems. The only problem I have experienced are bad TPS (throttle position sensor) which is same as used on many GM cars ($18 at auto parts) which can be replaced with two small screws in 2 minutes. When TPS failed, still runs but erratic throttle.

Two of my buddies put these on their older SBC Corvettes and work good...except the 'engineer' who can not leaving anything untouched. He is constantly screwing with the settings. So, I would go and 'erase' all his setting and 'click' default and tell him hands off. After 4-5 times, I block the computer plug with aircraft safety wire and put an old lead seal on it to keep him out !!

Your R2 engine would do nicely with an EFI throttle body, that would be a fun project.

Joe

[StudeNorm]

Thanks for all this info, Joe. My R2 is mostly stock right now but as the car has a number of cosmetic changes it will never be "stock original". For this reason I would not be averse to making modern upgrades to the drivability of the car. After the last dive into the carb it has sorted out quite nicely but still there is nothing as good as a well engineered FI system, so that will always be an option I don't mind taking.

I have about a years worth of waiting to do to before my new digs are ready for moving into so I really don't want to start any more projects before I get resettled. I will be trailering the car to Tacoma "as-is" and see how it fares in the SDC judging. This will give me a big heads up on what I need to do to it once I retire, move and finally have the time and space to tear into it. My wife will be joining me in Tacoma thus the need to tow it. Our truck has AC and a big, comfy interior and the suspension is not a super stiff set up like the Avanti.

This has been an interesting exercise and now I need to have the car keep it together for a bit so I can drive and enjoy it for the rest of the summer. Failing passenger power window mechanism and all...

The pic shows the float angle when a valve seat backs out in the carb. You can also see where I missed threading the gasket onto the carb hat mounting stud. Late nights in Norm's Garage...

Later. Or maybe not as this thread may soon be closed.

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