Cadillac/Avanti!

[mfg]

1 hour ago, Nelson said:

I looked at that pipe and wondered the same thing. There are probably a few logical reasons once blended together might have given him the green light. They would be time allotted time for the radiator modification along with expense which was now on Joe not Studebaker, the fairly large copper pipe gave a good boost in water capacity and also additional cooling capacity. Just a thought.

Yes, I agree the extension pipe would increase coolant capacity...a good thing.....as long as the stock Cadillac water pump, (considering the additional distance), was powerful enough to move the coolant back up into the engine?

[regnalbob]

15 hours ago, Nelson said:

I don’t see or know of any documentation saying the car was ordered less engine. Only that the PO has not been located.

 

4 hours ago, Nelson said:

I definitely respect John’s research but I still don’t see how he can say “we know 4795 was delivered with no engine or transmission”. Unless I’m missing something or something was unintentionally left out of the article, I wouldn’t go on record with that statement. Again, I respect John so maybe I’m missing something.

We must be the only ones who do not believe it was built with no engine or transmission.

[bob caser]

I enjoy being proven wrong, but I doubt that this car was shipped from South Bend to Santa Monica minus an engine. Even today it is still difficult to transport a  car without a drive-train by common carrier.

Bob Caser

[Nelson]

Bob, I was thinking about you when this subject came up. I thought you may have been around Paxton at the time and might remember Joe Granatelli’s Avanti and could shed some light on the subject. I talked to Richard Bennet last night. He was out there at about the same time picking up the Due Cento. He wasn’t too interested in the Cadillac transplant at the time but he seemed to remember a Stude engine being removed and the Cadillac installed. However, that’s not exactly history in concrete. So, I guess there’s three doubters here plus Richard B. Haha🤔😊

Edited March 6, 2023 by Nelson

[mfg]

3 hours ago, bob caser said:

I enjoy being proven wrong, but I doubt that this car was shipped from South Bend to Santa Monica minus an engine. Even today it is still difficult to transport a  car without a drive-train by common carrier.

Bob Caser

You gents need to consider what the 99-19 deviation tag may have indicated...also, a major corporation special shipping an engineless car cross country would have been childs play for them...think of all the CKD vehicles Studebaker shipped around the world!

The missing PO for R4795 also seems a bit odd..to me anyway🤔

[bob caser]

Nelson,

This is my time frame , and I do remember the car, but never saw the construction of it . I have been in the automotive aftermarket for the past 55 years and we still have issues shipping no drive-train cars. I have attached some photos that I took of Paxton Products a few years ago. The building looks the same as the 60's when Andy, Joe and Vince were there doing their Paxton and Novi magic. I do remember going there when the were dyno testing for Indianapolis and hearing the Novi engines screaming at hi RPM.

Bob Caser

[Nelson]

Bob, nice photos of Paxton. That place looks to be in good shape. Is it being used for anything today? I need to put checking out that building on my bucket list. Glad you posted them.

[lschuc]

What was the address of this Paxton building in LA? 

[bob caser]

The address is 929 Olympic Blvd, Santa Monica, Ca. The photos were taken about two years ago and the building was vacant but it great condition.

Bob Caser

[John Hull]

I never specified it was ordered without an engine or transmission and labeled it speculation as a possibility

If Studebaker got wind a non studebaker engine was going into an Avanti with the work being done at a subsidiary for legal and liability issues it would make sure no paper trail would exist at Studebaker on that car Also it would be god awful advertising a GM engine in a Studebaker product again liability issues ie engine blows warranty etc

Officially at Studebaker it would not exist

Ray Cash worked for Paxton and drove their transport vehicle many many times from Santa Monica California to South Bend to pick up and deliver Avantis   Transportation would not be an issue

[Nelson]

Thanks, John. I kind of figured there was too much taken for granted by readers. We may never know for sure but if I remember right there are more than a few copies of each production order so it should show Up someday?

How were you able to translate the code at the top of the punch card?

[John Hull]

Translation result of dealing with cards over the years

no one Booth SNM (multiple copies) Krem have copies of PO

i learned long ago to never say never but if it exists it would probably only be in Paxtons records which I’m chasing currently

Regards

 

[mfg]

If the Cadillac 429 wasn't available until into the 1964 model year, as a forum member asserted...and if early '64 Cadillacs still came with 390's, as was also posted, then tbe actual install of " Brand X" possibly did not occur until sometime after Studebaker shut down South Bend engine production.

Canadian production would not really matter, as the '65 & '66 Studebakers utilized FACTORY INSTALLED GM engines!!

 

 

[lschuc]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:57 PM, regnalbob said:

I agree.

R-4795 was built in June, 1963 and the Cadillac 429 was not available yet. Production of the 429 started with the 1964 model year.

Some early 1964 Cadillacs still had the 390.

In June, 1963 the Granatellis were still getting the R3 and R4 engines ready for production and possibly making plans for Bonneville.

 

 

Although the Granatellis should have had access to a pre-production 429 engine from GM/Cadillac?? 

[lschuc]

8 hours ago, bob caser said:

The address is 929 Olympic Blvd, Santa Monica, Ca. The photos were taken about two years ago and the building was vacant but it great condition.

Bob Caser

Here is Google street view image of 929 Olympic Blvd as it looks today.  There is no signage on the building, but the rear overhead door was open with the street view photo was taken, and a number of cars can be seen inside.   No telling what it is used for today. But there are a lot of bars in front of the lower floor windows and fencing at the rear.

[regnalbob]

On 3/5/2023 at 8:39 PM, mfg said:

You gents need to consider what the 99-19 deviation tag may have indicated.

Studebaker used item code 99 on the production order to list any changes.

Item code 19 is for Automatic Floor Shift.

A few examples of the use of 99.

63R-1001     Install antenna.

63R-1025    Install antenna.

63R-1014     Install antenna, send to engineering, tag Granatelli.

    R-5373    Tag Granatelli.

    R-4513    Deviation Permit  5550  Captive Air tires.

    R-4130

 

 

 

[mfg]

Why would a Powershift  transmission require a "production change"?

[regnalbob]

59 minutes ago, mfg said:

Why would a Powershift  transmission require a "production change"?

It doesn't. Item code 19 indicates it was built with a Powershift.

 

[mfg]

2 minutes ago, regnalbob said:

It doesn't. Item code 19 indicates it was built with a Powershift.

 

That does not make sense Bob...what's the deviation?

What it PROBABLY means is 'delete Powershift  transmission'.... just as they deleted the engine in R4795 🙂

[regnalbob]

9 minutes ago, mfg said:

That does not make sense Bob...what's the deviation?

What it PROBABLY means is 'delete Powershift  transmission'.... just as they deleted the engine in R4795 🙂

Part of the deviation.

Without the production order you have no proof it was built without an engine.

An Avanti came with an R1 and 3 speed manual as standard equipment. Since this was a special order Avanti the R1 and 3 speed would have been deleted and not a Powershift.

The 19 indicates this was built with a Powershift.

Until a production order or some other documentation is found there is no proof that R-4795 was built without an engine or transmission.

 

[Nelson]

3 hours ago, regnalbob said:

Studebaker used item code 99 on the production order to list any changes.

Item code 19 is for Automatic Floor Shift.

A few examples of the use of 99.

63R-1001     Install antenna.

63R-1025    Install antenna.

63R-1014     Install antenna, send to engineering, tag Granatelli.

    R-5373    Tag Granatelli.

    R-4513    Deviation Permit  5550  Captive Air tires.

    R-4130

 

 

 

Was 4130 Egbert’s car?

[Nelson]

I think the 99 John Hull was referring to was on the punch card. I think it meant that it went to a Studebaker subsidiary like CTL or Paxton. I don’t think the J was necessarily for Joe Granatelli as that J appears on about all the punch cards I’ve seen?

[mfg]

16 minutes ago, Nelson said:

Was 4130 Egbert’s car?

Yes, it was his car.

[mfg]

2 hours ago, regnalbob said:

Part of the deviation.

Without the production order you have no proof it was built without an engine.

And conversly, you have no proof it was built WITH an engine!

So, until the production order turns up, (which it probably won't), this has become a moot point.....and that's that! 😁

 

 

[regnalbob]

2 hours ago, regnalbob said:

Part of the deviation.

Without the production order you have no proof it was built without an engine.

An Avanti came with an R1 and 3 speed manual as standard equipment. Since this was a special order Avanti the R1 and 3 speed would have been deleted and not a Powershift.

The 19 indicates this was built with a Powershift.

Until a production order or some other documentation is found there is no proof that R-4795 was built without an engine or transmission.

 

 

10 minutes ago, mfg said:

Without the production order you have no proof it was built without an engine.

And conversly, you have no proof it was built WITH an engine!

So, until the production order turns up, (which it probably won't), this has become a moot point.....and that's that! 😁

If you are going to quote me make sure you post all of it.

I made an effort to find out if it was or wasn't.

Thats more than you are capable of doing!😁