Stick Avantis!

[mfg]

The last four speed (pre-Blake) standard shift Avanti ll was #......?......

1) RQB 2119.......2) RQB 2127.......3) RQB 2136.....or....4) RQB 2150

[Avanti83]

RQB-2127 as per Skip Lackie IIRC

[mfg]

24 minutes ago, Avanti83 said:

RQB-2127 as per Skip Lackie IIRC

Sorry, RQB2127 is incorrect!

Any other thoughts on this trivia question?

[regnalbob]

34 minutes ago, Avanti83 said:

RQB-2127 as per Skip Lackie IIRC

 

9 minutes ago, mfg said:

Sorry, RQB2127 is incorrect!

Any other thoughts on this trivia question?

1974 RQB-2127 -   K. W. Lackie, Washington, D. C.
2011 - (last 4 speed built by Altman)
(Photo - July 2011 - Gettysburg PA)

Former Owners/Locales;
Tom Noller, 22 Nov 2005

[mfg]

HINT!....In an article found in the Fall/Winter 2011 'AVANTI MAGAZINE', Mr.Skip Lackie points out that his Avanti ll, RQB2127, is NOT the last 1974 Avanti ll built with a four speed transmission.

Any other guesses on the CORRECT serial number?

[Avanti83]

I spoke with Skip about this 3 months ago and at that time he said he had heard there was another on with a later number but he was still wondering if 27 wasn't the last as they were modified at the factory and not necessarily in the numerical order.

I could argue that mine is the last one as it appears to be the only one with the later model console with the e-brake mounted behind the shifter. I'll submit the last one was not necessarily the latest number as they were custom built.

I'd sure like to see a picture of the one you think is the last including door plate, clutch petal and shifter lever in a single shot.

[mfg]

17 minutes ago, Avanti83 said:

I spoke with Skip about this 3 months ago and at that time he said he had heard there was another on with a later number but he was still wondering if 27 wasn't the last as they were modified at the factory and not necessarily in the numerical order.

I could argue that mine is the last one as it appears to be the only one with the later model console with the e-brake mounted behind the shifter. I'll submit the last one was not necessarily the latest number as they were custom built.

I'd sure like to see a picture of the one you think is the last including door plate, clutch petal and shifter lever in a single shot.

As Mr. Lackie reported, thirty 1974 Avanti ll's were assembled after his.....Anyway, RQB2127 was built in October of 1974...RQB 2136 (the serial number we are looking for here), had an invoice of November 21, 1974... (I do not know build date) It was built with a four speed transmission, and sold to  Dr. William Merrell of Florida.

No doubt, unless a later serial number turns up, the last four speed 1974 Avanti ll built was # RQB 2136.....unfortunately I do not have a picture of it.

CORRECT ANSWER....RQB2136.

Edited September 1, 2019 by mfg

[regnalbob]

16 minutes ago, mfg said:

No doubt, unless a later serial number turns up, the last four speed 1974 Avanti ll built was # RQB 2136.....unfortunately I do not have a picture of it.

CORRECT ANSWER....RQB2136.

 

[Avanti83]

Just found the same thing, First time I've seen that data during a search. Looks like Skip and I can discuss which is later, 2127 vs 2123 with the floor console e-brake. Interesting that 2136 has the old console.

Our discussion started when I found out his didn't have the newer console and mine did. I know mine is factory as I bought it from the OP.

Mine

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Avanti83

[studegary]

I believe that RQB 2136 was ordered as a four speed, but actually built as an automatic transmission, so this number can not be the correct answer.

[mfg]

1 hour ago, studegary said:

I believe that RQB 2136 was ordered as a four speed, but actually built as an automatic transmission, so this number can not be the correct answer.

That's possible Gary, however, until something more definite is posted the answer will remain unchanged!

( Mr. Lackie will  be surprised if you're correct!)

[Skip Lackie]

Mr Lackie is indeed surprised.  I had been looking for a 4-speed Avanti II for quite a while, and ended up buying 2127 from a dealer at the Carlisle flea market in 1990.  He had painted it in the original bronze color, but everything else was original, including the early console with under-dash parking brake handle.  It was ordered through Roger Penn by a man from western Maryland who specified the 4-speed, and the story was that he had to wait almost a year for delivery and had threatened to cancel several times.  Delivery was on October 25, 1974. It later went through several other owners, one of whom was (supposedly) Steve Blake.  It was supposedly the car that convinced Blake that he should buy the company and re-introduce the standard shift in 1984.  I met Blake around 1992, and he confirmed the story -- except that he couldn't remember if my car was the one that he had owned.  He said he had owned several, though only one had stick.

 I was told that it was the last one built with stick shift due to the impending tightening of the air quality regs in 1975.  (Geoff Newman confirmed this fact with me -- the company couldn't afford to build two cars, one with auto and one with stick, for the EPA to test for emissions and gas mileage.  This was before the EPA allowed waivers for small manufacturers from the air quality testing standards.)  I made the claim that it was the last standard shift car built on a windshield card at the Gettysburg meet.  Soon after, I received an anonymous note claiming that my statement was wrong and that THEIR car was the last 4-speed built.  The note included the serial number (later than mine) as proof, but I no longer remember what it was. It may have been 2136.   So I conceded the issue in the 2011 magazine item.  Given that Steve Blake started making Avantis with standard shift again in 1984, it wasn’t really the LAST last anyway.

[mfg]

11 minutes ago, Skip Lackie said:

 

 

 

 

[mfg]

14 minutes ago, Skip Lackie said:

Mr Lackie is indeed surprised.  I had been looking for a 4-speed Avanti II for quite a while, and ended up buying 2127 from a dealer at the Carlisle flea market in 1990.  He had painted it in the original bronze color, but everything else was original, including the early console with under-dash parking brake handle.  It was ordered through Roger Penn by a man from western Maryland who specified the 4-speed, and the story was that he had to wait almost a year for delivery and had threatened to cancel several times.  Delivery was on October 25, 1974. It later went through several other owners, one of whom was (supposedly) Steve Blake.  It was supposedly the car that convinced Blake that he should buy the company and re-introduce the standard shift in 1984.  I met Blake around 1992, and he confirmed the story -- except that he couldn't remember if my car was the one that he had owned.  He said he had owned several, though only one had stick.

 

 I was told that it was the last one built with stick shift due to the impending tightening of the air quality regs in 1975.  (Geoff Newman confirmed this fact with me -- the company couldn't afford to build two cars, one with auto and one with stick, for the EPA to test for emissions and gas mileage.  This was before the EPA allowed waivers for small manufacturers from the air quality testing standards.)  I made the claim that it was the last standard shift car built on a windshield card at the Gettysburg meet.  Soon after, I received an anonymous note claiming that my statement was wrong and that THEIR car was the last 4-speed built.  The note included the serial number (later than mine) as proof, but I no longer remember what it was. It may have been 2136.   So I conceded the issue in the 2011 magazine item.  Given that Steve Blake started making Avantis with standard shift again in 1984, it wasn’t really the LAST last anyway.

 

Thank you for your input on this trivia question Skip!......Studegary feels that RQB 2136 was ordered with a four speed, however, it was actually built with an automatic!....If he's correct it would mean that your Avanti (RQB2127) most probably is the last (Newman-Altman) Avanti ll built with a standard transmission....and that's pretty cool!...Take care, Ed

[Skip Lackie]

As I mentioned to Bob a few months ago, I got a tour of Avanti Motors in 1976, and there were several earlier Avantis in the shop for rehab and/or modification -- it was a significant percentage of their business at that time.  Given that capability, they may very well have swapped around transmissions or other components on already-built cars to fill firm orders.  It's possible that my car was originally assembled with an automatic and later modified to satisfy the order from the Maryland buyer.  It might also explain the long delay in filling the order -- but it also means that the "completion" date of any given car cannot be inferred from the serial number alone.

An unrelated factoid: nearly all federal safety and emissions standards become effective on 1 January of a given year, while the model year of most manufacturers starts back in September or October (but it doesn't have to).  Avanti Motors took advantage of this on a couple of occasions by building cars to the earlier standard all the way into December, and calling them the earlier model year.

[Avanti83]

Skip

 I just went back through my paperwork that I received with RQB-2123 and the delivery date is 10/24/74 in South Bend, In. It looks like yours is the last. Why mine has the newer console will probably remain in doubt but it was returned to South Bend about a year after purchase to have the 400 truck motor replaced with a more car-like 350 which it had when I purchased.

The console looks like an original install as there is no evidence of an under-dash e-brake being mounted. Probably never know but because mine now has the T-56 6-speed and your's is original, so the last one remains original.

Bob

[Skip Lackie]

Bob-

I vote for yours on the basis of the of the console and parking brake mounting location.  Yours was obviously COMPLETED later, regardless of the delivery date.  Though that raises a question:  What is really last: assembly finished last, or delivered last?

Skip

[Gunslinger]

According to the information I have, the center pull parking brake stated with RQB2325 in 1976.  In 1975 at RQB2263 they began using a Willys parking brake handle which I presume is a different handle or assembly mounted under the dash but the paperwork isn't clear on that.  

While company paperwork can always be mistaken I would think anything on an Avanti II outside of those numbers could either have been issued paperwork-wise or modified after the fact. Avanti motors did some strange things and they didn't always get recorded or the documentation is unavailable or yet to be discovered.

[Avanti83]

1 hour ago, Gunslinger said:

According to the information I have, the center pull parking brake stated with RQB2325 in 1976.  In 1975 at RQB2263 they began using a Willys parking brake handle which I presume is a different handle or assembly mounted under the dash but the paperwork isn't clear on that.  

While company paperwork can always be mistaken I would think anything on an Avanti II outside of those numbers could either have been issued paperwork-wise or modified after the fact. Avanti motors did some strange things and they didn't always get recorded or the documentation is unavailable or yet to be discovered.

I'd like to get to the bottom of this if possible. Here are a couple of shots of the firewall, I have many more, where did the dash mounted e-brake go through the firewall during these years.

[Skip Lackie]

Am not home, but my recollection is that the dash-mounted brake cable extends horizontally through the dash, maybe 6-8 inches above the gas pedal.  The cable goes through a clip on the back bolt of the exhaust manifold and heads downward.  

Addendum to my post above: found the anonymous note stating that 2127 was not the last 4-speed built.  The car referred to was, indeed, RQB-2136.  The sales invoice is dated November 20, 1974.

[mfg]

I must say that posting an innocuous trivia question can sometimes produce very interesting responses and information......Good for you guys!

[studegary]

On 9/2/2019 at 5:04 PM, Skip Lackie said:

Bob-

I vote for yours on the basis of the of the console and parking brake mounting location.  Yours was obviously COMPLETED later, regardless of the delivery date.  Though that raises a question:  What is really last: assembly finished last, or delivered last?

Skip

To me, assembled last, is what counts.  Cars have been initially sold much later than they were built.  There were 1963 Avantis that were not sold new until 1973. 

[studegary]

5 hours ago, Skip Lackie said:

Am not home, but my recollection is that the dash-mounted brake cable extends horizontally through the dash, maybe 6-8 inches above the gas pedal.  The cable goes through a clip on the back bolt of the exhaust manifold and heads downward.  

Addendum to my post above: found the anonymous note stating that 2127 was not the last 4-speed built.  The car referred to was, indeed, RQB-2136.  The sales invoice is dated November 20, 1974.

But are you/they sure that RQB2136 was actually assembled and delivered as a four speed and not actually built as an automatic even though initially ordered as a 4-speed?

[Skip Lackie]

'Twas not me who made any claims about 2136.  It was the anonymous person who objected to my claim that 2127 was the last one built with stick.   He/she included a copy of the invoice for 2136 that showed it being built with standard shift.  That's all I know.

[Avanti83]

As I dig through my photos, I did find some that indicate a pair of holes directly above gas pedal, which I filled.

I finally found the originals owners son and asked him to see if his dad can recall if it came originally with the console. Hopefully, he's still around as he wasn't in great health a couple of years back.