Fitting a group 51 or 51R battery into a '63 Avanti

[Dwight FitzSimons]

I recently bought a group 51 battery for a '63 Avanti, but now wonder if I should have gotten a 51R (same except terminals reversed). I need to decide while I still have time to exchange it.

The 51/51R battery is smaller and much lighter, is of modern technology, costs less, and lasts longer.  What's not to like about a 51/51R (unless you're dedicated to originality)?

The pic below shows a 51R installed in a '63 Avanti. Everything on this car looks well done, so I figure he knew what he is doing.  He has re-positioned both hold-down posts and has made a bracket to move the fender-side post forward.  It looks like these changes have made using a 51R battery a better choice than a 51, although it looks like either could be used.

The 3EE battery is (LxWxH, inches)  19.3125  x  4.375   x    8.875
The 51/51R battery is  ........................9.374   x   5.0624  x  8.8125

The 51/51R is ~0.7" wider -- should be no problem
The 51/51R is ~ 0.75" lower in height --  no problem

Comments?
--Dwight

 

Edited August 24, 2024 by Dwight FitzSimons

[mfg]

13 hours ago, Dwight FitzSimons said:

I recently bought a group 51 battery for a '63 Avanti, but now wonder if I should have gotten a 51R (same except terminals reversed). I need to decide while I still have time to exchange it.

The 51/51R battery is smaller and much lighter, is of modern technology, costs less, and lasts longer (I assume).  What's not to like about a 51/51R (unless you're dedicated to originality)?

The pic below shows a 51R installed in a '63 Avanti. Everything on this car looks well done, so I figure he knew what he is doing.  He has re-positioned both hold-down posts and has made a bracket to move the fender-side post forward.  It looks like these changes have made using a 51R battery a better choice than a 51, although it looks like either could be used.

The 3EE battery is (LxWxH, inches)  19.3125  x  4.375   x    8.875
The 51/51R battery is  ........................9.374   x   5.0624  x  8.8125

The 51/51R is ~0.7" wider -- should be no problem
The 51/51R is ~ 0.75" lower in height --  no problem

Comments?
--Dwight

 

Looks like a winner to me… Like you say, unless the battery MUST be a 3EE for show purposes, this is a great way to go!

[Dwight FitzSimons]

21 hours ago, mfg said:

Looks like a winner to me… Like you say, unless the battery MUST be a 3EE for show purposes, this is a great way to go!

Thanks, it's good to have some confirmation that I'm on the right track.  Actually, I'm just going to copy the owner of the black '63 Avanti in the pic.  I have exchanged the 51 for a 51R and will start working on the simple bracketry needed and will have new cables made.

--Dwight

[mfg]

48 minutes ago, Dwight FitzSimons said:

Thanks, it's good to have some confirmation that I'm on the right track.  Actually, I'm just going to copy the owner of the black '63 Avanti in the pic.  I have exchanged the 51 for a 51R and will start working on the simple bracketry needed and will have new cables made.

--Dwight

I took a different path on my ‘63…. I relocated a group 24 battery to the trunk, then re- installed the 3EE (gutted) in the engine compartment complete with a couple of bogus battery cables… My 3EE weighs about 2 pounds now!

[Dwight FitzSimons]

22 hours ago, mfg said:

I took a different path on my ‘63…. I relocated a group 24 battery to the trunk, then re- installed the 3EE (gutted) in the engine compartment complete with a couple of bogus battery cables… My 3EE weighs about 2 pounds now!

I would think that's an even better option.  I just don't want to go to that extent for a car that I'm going to sell.

--Dwight

[aardvark]

Gotta ask. What is wrong with the 3EE?

I do keep mine on a trickle charger and am having no issues.   Diehard makes em.

Edited August 27, 2024 by aardvark

[Dwight FitzSimons]

2 hours ago, aardvark said:

Gotta ask. What is wrong with the 3EE?

I do keep mine on a trickle charger and am having no issues.   Diehard makes em.

There's nothing wrong with a 3EE battery, I just prefer a smaller battery (I use a size 25 in my '64).  Modern technology has given us stronger, more reliable batteries in a smaller package, and I generally go with modern technology.  Studebaker did, in '64, changing to a size 24.  A size 24 is a car battery, a 3EE is a commercial battery.

"Diehard" is just a marketing label.  I don't know who makes their batteries for them.

Actually, mfg has (I think) the ultimate solution: a gutted 3EE in the engine compartment and a size 24 in the trunk.  Several of our SDC Forum experts have advocated relocating the battery to the trunk.

To those who keep their '63 Avantis original, I say more power to them.  I do like seeing all-original Studes at shows, with bias-ply tires, etc.  I'm just not into 3EE batteries and bias-ply tires.

--Dwight

[mfg]

I ‘feel’ for my ‘63 (as I believe we all do for our cars) and taking quite a bit of weight off an already nose heavy front end… and off that fragile fiberglass apron…. seemed like a mod my Avanti would agree with… if it could ‘talk’ !!!!

[Gunslinger]

Any weight that can be taken off an Avanti front end is worthwhile.  Handling improves...maybe not always perceptively but it's there.  It helps increase the life of the front coil springs.  Any help reducing the front weight bias is a net positive.  

[aardvark]

I see Your Points. (plural).

My only issue is needing to keep the 3EE on a trickle charger, since it seems to drain itself over time. I had to replace the 3EE once already when it went dead from sitting over a few months time. The weight? Maybe 30 lbs? My Portly Sis would throw the geometry off far worse than that.

The Battery Box on mine cracked and I had to re-glass the area and re-paint. I've heard that's a common issue.

[mox]

I replaced the 3EE a couple of years ago in my 63, it has more cranking amps, more cold cranking amps than the 3EE, much lighter and maintenance free. The 3EE was always spitting from the vents in the plugs as well. I’ve owned my car since 1970 and can’t count the number of 3EEs I’ve replaced over the years, they never seemed to last long. I not fussy about keeping everything original and glad I switched to the 51. If your battery box is cracked or weakening SI sells an under the fender reinforcement piece for 63s.

[mfg]

I wonder why Studebaker engineers felt the need to use a 3EE battery in the first place? …. They had no problem fitting a common Group 24 type battery into the later ‘square light’ Avanti models!

[Dwight FitzSimons]

9 hours ago, mfg said:

I wonder why Studebaker engineers felt the need to use a 3EE battery in the first place? …. They had no problem fitting a common Group 24 type battery into the later ‘square light’ Avanti models!

Yes, it seems like a bone-headed mistake to me.  At least they woke up a year later.

--Dwight

[Geoff]

I recall performing 3EE battery maintenance on 1025 quite a bit when I was driving her in the '90s. We would charge the battery, and open the caps to add distilled water and electrolytes some times. From 1995-1997 I don't believe we ever changed batteries, just maintenance and charging. We did replace that battery once we started repairing my '97 crash, in 2012.

The battery tray's strength is something else isn't it? I wonder if borrowing a page from C5 'Vette's floor, and making a balsa sandwich between fiberglass (FRP/MFG) would be a worthwhile investment? It's a stronger solution, and not much heavier. It's not original so show cars wouldn't want that. For everybody else, that could be a winning solution.

[Hogtrough]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:42 PM, mfg said:

I took a different path on my ‘63…. I relocated a group 24 battery to the trunk, then re- installed the 3EE (gutted) in the engine compartment complete with a couple of bogus battery cables… My 3EE weighs about 2 pounds now!

Old thread, I know...but just wondered how difficult it is to "gut" the battery? Any conventional Optima or other batteries that might fit inside it?

[mfg]

25 minutes ago, Hogtrough said:

Old thread, I know...but just wondered how difficult it is to "gut" the battery? Any conventional Optima or other batteries that might fit inside it?

‘Gutting’ the 3EE is easy enough but messy, and you should have a disposal plan in place for the lead battery plates and, of course, the battery acid….

With a sharp razor knife I cut through the battery case about 1” down from the top (on my Eastern battery there was a line on the case I followed…

Then I lifted the top off and slid out the plates and acid (wear gloves and safety glasses!)… I also kept the battery posts in place as part of the top……

Messy, but I feel well worth the effort….When I show my Avanti the engine compartment looks quite ‘correct’… including the 3EE battery with its dummy cables, which now only ways perhaps a pound or two!!!

 

[mfg]

Fitting a smaller battery inside  a gutted 3EE?…. My guess is there would not be enough room…. but the idea does sound interesting!

[aardvark]

I have to ask... whats so wrong with the 3EE?

It's original and the same price as many other options. They are finicky but buy a $10.oo trickle charger and there will be no problems.

 

[mfg]

4 hours ago, aardvark said:

I have to ask... whats so wrong with the 3EE?

It's original and the same price as many other options. They are finicky but buy a $10.oo trickle charger and there will be no problems.

 

3EE batteries are EXCELLENT… for John Deere tractors!!!!!!!!

Seriously, why do you think the company that made the Avanti, Studebaker, saw that using the cumbersome 3EE was a mistake and got rid of it, going to a common Group 24 type, when other updates on their Avanti were being phased in?

Edited Sunday at 12:05 AM by mfg
Added text

[aardvark]

Well MFG/// They got rid of the 289 as well, but while Originally Studie (63-64) the 3EE was used (as best I know)

I'm not all about being 100% original, but IF Your car is one of those untouched by changes or mods, it behoves You to stick with OEM parts. It would be a different thing if the 3EE wasn't available or highly expensive , but it is available and not priced much different than any other option. Mine, (below) is 100% Stock cept the Aluminum Wheels but I have a new set of the Stock hubcaps in the trunk.

I don't like the brakes and am in the process of upgrading to Dual Master and new Turner disks..                                                            ( I live in the Mountains and braking is paramount). BUT I will keep the Original Brake Part for the next owner if they want to revert back.

But I am sorta envious of the later models with a Chev Small Block. That was a good upgrade and a 383 stroker could be done and it would look stock.

Edited Sunday at 10:46 AM by aardvark

[mfg]

3 hours ago, aardvark said:

Well MFG/// They got rid of the 289 as well, but while Originally Studie (63-64) the 3EE was used (as best I know)

I'm not all about being 100% original, but IF Your car is one of those untouched by changes or mods, it behoves You to stick with OEM parts. It would be a different thing if the 3EE wasn't available or highly expensive , but it is available and not priced much different than any other option. Mine, (below) is 100% Stock cept the Aluminum Wheels but I have a new set of the Stock hubcaps in the trunk.

I don't like the brakes and am in the process of upgrading to Dual Master and new Turner disks..                                                            ( I live in the Mountains and braking is paramount). BUT I will keep the Original Brake Part for the next owner if they want to revert back.

But I am sorta envious of the later models with a Chev Small Block. That was a good upgrade and a 383 stroker could be done and it would look stock.

Turner brakes and dual master are ‘spot on’ good ideas…. 3EE is not unless, as you say, the idea is to keep an Avanti which is all original…. all original. 

Just my opinion!

[aardvark]

It's not that I disagree with a better battery, but if a 3EE turns it over, I don't care about a 30-40# weight increase in the front end. My Wife throws off the balance by 125#'s. and it's all incremental . How much do you and I weigh? Are we after track timing by the second at a time?

As said, I love Retro. I love Mods.. I'm in a scenario where originality is key on this vehicle.    It's just a destiny on this one.

I've had a SB Vega with a 400ci and turbo 400 tranny... and many other vehicles that would curl your hair and straighten it in the same run.

Each vehicle needs approached for it's value and fun..

 

 

[mfg]

16 minutes ago, aardvark said:

It's not that I disagree with a better battery, but if a 3EE turns it over, I don't care about a 30-40# weight increase in the front end. My Wife throws off the balance by 125#'s. and it's all incremental . How much do you and I weigh? Are we after track timing by the second at a time?

As said, I love Retro. I love Mods.. I'm in a scenario where originality is key on this vehicle.    It's just a destiny on this one.

I've had a SB Vega with a 400ci and turbo 400 tranny... and many other vehicles that would curl your hair and straighten it in the same run.

Each vehicle needs approached for it's value and fun..

 

 

Aard, if it works for you…. ‘GO WITH IT’!

[aardvark]

Well, its what this car logically needs.   I wish I could go a different direction , but the cars value plays a hand in the decision.

As said, I'm not against anyone Modding their vehicle. Done so all my life with many vehicles to achieve what i wanted.

[mfg]

12 hours ago, aardvark said:

Well, its what this car logically needs.   I wish I could go a different direction , but the cars value plays a hand in the decision.

As said, I'm not against anyone Modding their vehicle. Done so all my life with many vehicles to achieve what i wanted.

I completely understand…. My ‘63 is a ‘keeper’, and I have made a few mods to it that, to me anyway, are improvements… My general rule of thumb is…. Make modifications that improve the car, but do that using Studebaker parts albeit possibly different years!

Example… I‘ve installed a factory AM-FM Delco radio in my ‘63 Avanti… correct for a ‘64 Avanti, but not for an early ‘63.

Edited Monday at 06:29 PM by mfg
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