Cadillac/Avanti!

[mfg]

In the latest issue of AVANTI MAGAZINE there's a great article on Joe Granatelli's Cadillac/ Avanti....

Very nicely done install, however, I was amazed they would use a two foot long copper pipe to direct coolant from the lower radiator outlet and back up into the engine..

I wonder why they didn't have a local radiator shop simply move the lower outlet on the radiator over to the driver's side?

[mfg]

I wonder if that coolant extension pipe was a factor in Joe's Avanti's overheating problems? 🤔

[lschuc]

4 hours ago, mfg said:

I wonder if that coolant extension pipe was a factor in Joe's Avanti's overheating problems? 🤔

 

Page 22 of this issue explains that the radiator was rotated 90 degrees and straightened up to a vertical plane for better cooling.  So this is what most likely necessitated the copper extension pipe to the lower radiator outlet, as seen in the published photo.

[mfg]

18 minutes ago, lschuc said:

 

Page 22 of this issue explains that the radiator was rotated 90 degrees and straightened up to a vertical plane for better cooling.  So this is what most likely necessitated the copper extension pipe to the lower radiator outlet, as seen in the published photo.

Yes, that makes sense 🤔

[Nelson]

I’m sure there was a production order for that car, it’s just not in the particular file checked. It isn’t uncommon for a PO to be missing. The more I think about it the more I think I remember it being an R1 then an R4 then the Cadillac. The PO mentioned in the article is a computer punch card generated in July of 1964 well after its production date, not a production order. John does note the numbers in the top left corner and has translated them (I always wondered their significance). It would be pretty much a stretch to read into that translation that the car came with no drive train. The Granatellis were not stupid, they wouldn’t order a car without an engine then install an engine from their competitor. Even after Studebaker shut its doors I found it troubling that Joe G would actually do this transplant. Hell, the body wasn’t even cold.

[mfg]

There's no doubt the Granatellis yearned for a large cubic inch engine for the Avanti....they finally took matters into their own hands!!

[mfg]

1 hour ago, Nelson said:

 The more I think about it the more I think I remember it being an R1 then an R4 then the Cadillac. 

Nelson... you may be thinking of the Stude Avanti which was featured in a sixties engine swapping magazine.....It started as an R1, then an R4 was installed, and finally an Oldsmobile 455!

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by mfg

[lschuc]

10 minutes ago, mfg said:

Nelson... you may be thinking of the Stude Avanti which was featured in a sixties engine swapping magazine.....It started as an R1, then an R4 was installed, and finally an Oldsmobile 455!

 

 

The Avanti that ended up with an Olds 455 has been owned by Jon Myer for a long time.  

 

[mfg]

1 hour ago, lschuc said:

The Avanti that ended up with an Olds 455 has been owned by Jon Myer for a long time.  

 

Didn't know that..interesting!

[mfg]

Also, I see nothing unusual about a shop like Paxton Products purchasing R4795 less engine...they probably had the Cadillac 429 already, and simply wanted a 'cool' home for it!

Besides, they probably paid next to nothing for R4795...Remember that earlier Studebaker sold the Granatellis 63R1025, a year old fully intact supercharged Avanti, for $500!!! 😟

[Nelson]

2 hours ago, mfg said:

Nelson... you may be thinking of the Stude Avanti which was featured in a sixties engine swapping magazine.....It started as an R1, then an R4 was installed, and finally an Oldsmobile 455!

 

 

I do remember that swap. Maybe I’ve got that mixed up in my head with Joe’s car?? I am pretty certain Joe’s car was equipped originally with an R1 and Joe replaced that with the Cadillac. I think I’ll make a few phone calls and see how bad my memory might be.

[Nelson]

1 hour ago, mfg said:

Also, I see nothing unusual about a shop like Paxton Products purchasing R4795 less engine...they probably had the Cadillac 429 already, and simply wanted a 'cool' home for it!

Besides, they probably paid next to nothing for R4795...Remember that earlier Studebaker sold the Granatellis 63R1025, a year old fully intact supercharged Avanti, for $500!!! 😟

Well, the insinuation is that Joe ordered a Avanti with no engine in order to install a competitors engine. That would seem odd to me. I don’t think that actually happened that way as I think the Stude engine was removed and a Cadillac installed after Stude made the announcement it was discontinuing production in SB. Studebaker was still Joe’s employer, so it appears, to my way of thinking, as odd that he would install the Cadillac in a nearly new Studebaker. 

[mfg]

13 hours ago, Nelson said:

Well, the insinuation is that Joe ordered a Avanti with no engine in order to install a competitors engine. That would seem odd to me. I don’t think that actually happened that way as I think the Stude engine was removed and a Cadillac installed after Stude made the announcement it was discontinuing production in SB. Studebaker was still Joe’s employer, so it appears, to my way of thinking, as odd that he would install the Cadillac in a nearly new Studebaker. 

Yes...I guess the 'timing' of exactly when the Cad installation was done would have a bearing on this....

Of course, we are talking about the same people who later on installed a TURBINE engine in a street driven Corvette!!!!

The Granatellis thought BIG!!! 👍

[regnalbob]

18 hours ago, Nelson said:

Well, the insinuation is that Joe ordered a Avanti with no engine in order to install a competitors engine. That would seem odd to me. I don’t think that actually happened that way as I think the Stude engine was removed and a Cadillac installed after Stude made the announcement it was discontinuing production in SB. Studebaker was still Joe’s employer, so it appears, to my way of thinking, as odd that he would install the Cadillac in a nearly new Studebaker. 

I agree.

R-4795 was built in June, 1963 and the Cadillac 429 was not available yet. Production of the 429 started with the 1964 model year.

Some early 1964 Cadillacs still had the 390.

In June, 1963 the Granatellis were still getting the R3 and R4 engines ready for production and possibly making plans for Bonneville.

 

 

[mfg]

1 hour ago, regnalbob said:

I agree.

R-4795 was built in June, 1963 and the Cadillac 429 was not available yet. Production of the 429 started with the 1964 model year.

Some early 1964 Cadillacs still had the 390.

In June, 1963 the Granatellis were still getting the R3 and R4 engines ready for production and possibly making plans for Bonneville.

 

 

You missed the point...which is...When did Joe Granatelli RECEIVE R4795 from Studebaker?

It's well known that many completed but unsold Avantis languished at the factory  (and at Studebaker dealers) for months.

[Nelson]

But, if Joe actually purchased out of SB stock he would have paid plenty for the car. If he bought it out of Paxton’s inventory it could very well have been another $500 Avanti.

[mfg]

17 minutes ago, Nelson said:

But, if Joe actually purchased out of SB stock he would have paid plenty for the car. If he bought it out of Paxton’s inventory it could very well have been another $500 Avanti.

True!...Let's face it though...with Joe Granatelli's connections at the time, he no doubt got a "very good" deal on R4795!!

[regnalbob]

37 minutes ago, Nelson said:

But, if Joe actually purchased out of SB stock he would have paid plenty for the car. If he bought it out of Paxton’s inventory it could very well have been another $500 Avanti.

This Avanti was not bought out of inventory, it was a special order.

 

[mfg]

34 minutes ago, regnalbob said:

This Avanti was not bought out of inventory, it was a special order.

 

You'e correct there...special ordered less engine!! 😁

[Dwight FitzSimons]

So, I wonder what Joe Granatelli told South Bend he was going to do with the car, or whether he addressed that issue at all with them.  Maybe they just assumed that he was going to put an R3 or R4 engine in it.

--Dwight

[mfg]

39 minutes ago, Dwight FitzSimons said:

So, I wonder what Joe Granatelli told South Bend he was going to do with the car, or whether he addressed that issue at all with them.  Maybe they just assumed that he was going to put an R3 or R4 engine in it.

--Dwight

Hard to believe now, but at the time SB was no doubt happy to see it go!

[Nelson]

I don’t see or know of any documentation saying the car was ordered less engine. Only that the PO has not been located.

[mfg]

9 hours ago, Nelson said:

I don’t see or know of any documentation saying the car was ordered less engine. Only that the PO has not been located.

Well Nelson, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, however, I have much confidence in John Hull's research....so unless you can come up with further information, I presently feel that R4795 was delivered to Joe Granatelli less engine....Ed 🙂

[Nelson]

I definitely respect John’s research but I still don’t see how he can say “we know 4795 was delivered with no engine or transmission”. Unless I’m missing something or something was unintentionally left out of the article, I wouldn’t go on record with that statement. Again, I respect John so maybe I’m missing something.

[Nelson]

On 2/27/2023 at 9:53 AM, mfg said:

In the latest issue of AVANTI MAGAZINE there's a great article on Joe Granatelli's Cadillac/ Avanti....

Very nicely done install, however, I was amazed they would use a two foot long copper pipe to direct coolant from the lower radiator outlet and back up into the engine..

I wonder why they didn't have a local radiator shop simply move the lower outlet on the radiator over to the driver's side?

I looked at that pipe and wondered the same thing. There are probably a few logical reasons once blended together might have given him the green light. They would be time allotted time for the radiator modification along with expense which was now on Joe not Studebaker, the fairly large copper pipe gave a good boost in water capacity and also additional cooling capacity. Just a thought.