Avanti Four Door!

[mfg]

Studebaker considered producing a four -door Avanti, however, it was Michael Kelly who made such a car a reality........True?

[1963r2]

I thought the Avanti was going to be a line of cars. Therefore the initial plan was to product different versions however it never progressed very far.

True

[studegary]

2 hours ago, mfg said:

Studebaker considered producing a four -door Avanti, however, it was Michael Kelly who made such a car a reality........True?

I will say false because even though there was a  Studebaker four door prototype that had an Avanti appearance, it was to be a Studebaker and not an Avanti.

[mfg]

20 hours ago, 1963r2 said:

I thought the Avanti was going to be a line of cars. Therefore the initial plan was to product different versions however it never progressed very far.

True

Sorry, true is not correct here!

[mfg]

19 hours ago, studegary said:

I will say false because even though there was a  Studebaker four door prototype that had an Avanti appearance, it was to be a Studebaker and not an Avanti.

False is correct here, however, not for the reason which you stated.......The reason the answer is false is because J.J. Cafaro gets credit for producing the Avanti four-door', not Michael Kelly!

[studegary]

13 minutes ago, mfg said:

False is correct here, however, not for the reason which you stated.......The reason the answer is false is because J.J. Cafaro gets credit for producing the Avanti four-door', not Michael Kelly!

I guess that makes two reasons that it is false, but in this case a double negative does not make it true 😃. 

[mfg]

5 minutes ago, studegary said:

I guess that makes two reasons that it is false, but in this case a double negative does not make it true 😃. 

No Gary, your assertion concerning the prototype Studebaker Avanti four door is incorrect....That prototype, (the one with the quad headlamps), was, (if placed in production) destined to be an 'AVANTI'!

(See the recent Avanti Trivia question.... "2 Avanti Prototypes", and view the photos taken of that 'car'.........(taken at the the Virgil Marple auction)

[mfg]

On 6/26/2020 at 4:09 PM, studegary said:

I guess that makes two reasons that it is false, but in this case a double negative does not make it true 😃. 

!

Edited June 28, 2020 by mfg
Trying to be understanding!

[studegary]

21 hours ago, mfg said:

!

I read that print as being a Studebaker "pass. car", not an Avanti.

[mfg]

34 minutes ago, studegary said:

I read that print as being a Studebaker "pass. car", not an Avanti.

So now you're saying an Avanti isn't a passenger car??........What is it then...a washing machine???????

[studegary]

27 minutes ago, mfg said:

So now you're saying an Avanti isn't a passenger car??........What is it then...a washing machine???????

No, I am saying that this design was meant to be a new line of Studebaker passenger cars, not part of an Avanti line.

[mfg]

19 hours ago, studegary said:

No, I am saying that this design was meant to be a new line of Studebaker passenger cars, not part of an Avanti line.

Hmmm!...well Gary, that SURE looks like a Studebaker Avanti front bumper to me!

Edited June 29, 2020 by mfg
Still trying to be understanding.

[regnalbob]

On 6/28/2020 at 10:19 PM, studegary said:

No, I am saying that this design was meant to be a new line of Studebaker passenger cars, not part of an Avanti line.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 4:21 PM, mfg said:

No Gary, your assertion concerning the prototype Studebaker Avanti four door is incorrect....That prototype, (the one with the quad headlamps), was, (if placed in production) destined to be an 'AVANTI'!

The following is from an interview John Hora had with Tom Kellogg and published in the Avanti Newsletter in 1969.

 

 

 

 

[mfg]

So, Gary and Bob feel the photo of the four door Avanti  is actually a 1965 four-door 'Lark' or 'Hawk'....that's a bit of a S-T-R-E-T-C-H, however, they're certainly entitled to their opinion!

[studegary]

1 hour ago, mfg said:

So, Gary and Bob feel the photo of the four door Avanti  is actually a 1965 four-door 'Lark' or 'Hawk'....that's a bit of a S-T-R-E-T-C-H, however, they're certainly entitled to their opinion!

It is not just my memory and what Bob says, but what Tom Kellogg said in the interview; "They were all for the regular line of Studebakers.  They were not Avantis."  That interview with Tom was a short time (about four years) after this work happened.  It was to be a Studebaker.  There were no Larks or Hawks at that time (1964/1965). 

[mfg]

20 minutes ago, studegary said:

It is not just my memory and what Bob says, but what Tom Kellogg said in the interview; "They were all for the regular line of Studebakers.  They were not Avantis."  That interview with Tom was a short time (about four years) after this work happened.  It was to be a Studebaker.  There were no Larks or Hawks at that time (1964/1965). 

Gary and Bob,....Come on now...it's time to wake up and smell the roses!!.....If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and LOOKS like a duck....then no doubt IT'S A DUCK!!!!....(In this case it's an Avanti.)

Studebaker would not have used unique 'Avanti Only' body parts on that four door and called it anything else!

If you two want a better idea of what Studebakers that never were would have looked like, rustle up a copy of the June 1963 'CAR LIFE MAGAZINE' and read the article entitled "STUDEBAKER, HOW FAR FORWARD".

If you two feel that you need further information on this subject, I suggest you read Fred Fox's "Post Studebaker Avantis" article in your February, 1996 'TURNING WHEELS MAGAZINE'.

Now,.......... Say goodnight Gracie!

[Desert Driver]

My understanding is the Avanti was to be the styling inspiration for all new '65 Studebakers, replacing the GT Hawk and Lark series. But by Sept '63 (date on the photos) the Avanti was not the car that would save Studebaker. In spite of disappointing sales, Egbert wanted to continue on with automotive production. The Board didn't, and accepted his resignation in November. Byers Burlingame took over, and the rest is history.

I find Kellog's comment about adding front fender scoops to address engine heat interesting. While the grille under the front bumper pleased Loewy, it sure as heck didn't help vent engine heat. Guess Hardig & Co didn't have much, or any say in that design decision. 

 

 

 

[studegary]

I believe that the prototype was in metal and the production car would be metal and therefore would not have been using; "...'Avanti Only' body parts..."

[mfg]

19 hours ago, studegary said:

" therefore would not have been using; "...'Avanti Only' body parts..."

The METAL front bumper assembly on the car pictured above sure looks 'Avanti' to me....as does the extended leading fender edges, nose panel, and lower air scoop!

Call it a Lark, Hawk, or Izzer Buggy if it makes you feel better Gary, but I feel most 'reasonable' folks would consider it to be a prototype four door AVANTI!