R3 dual carb

[regnalbob]

7 hours ago, mfg said:

What Studebaker's original intended use of Rags63 R3 engine was has to one of the most interesting Stude/Avanti related questions to come along in a long time!

The Studebaker factory serial number, R3SM305, stamped on the block must indicate, in my humble opinion, that Studebaker had planned to build a car around this engine.....

But what was that car to be??....A TENTH 'production' R3 Avanti?.....A SECOND 'production' R3 powered 'Lark type'?....Or maybe it would have been a 'production line' R3 powered Gran Turismo Hawk? (What a car THAT would have been!!)

Yes, the question of the original intended use of this rare R3 engine I find to be VERY INTERESTING!.....Ed

That engine would have been used in an Avanti.

An R3 used in a Lark or Hawk would have a JTR3S prefix.

 

6 hours ago, mfg said:

Hmmm....my opinion on your thoughts (for what it's worth) is this.......I doubt there would be a factory serial number on this R3 block if were built as a warranty engine.....We know that Studebaker V8 replacement engines either had a 'cloverleaf' on the serial pad, or nothing there at all.

I also do not believe there would be a factory serial number stamped on it if it originally was , as you say, an "over the counter" engine....There would however be the Paxton stamped "B" number.

I'm quite sure that's the case ("B" number only) with George Krem's R3 engine, which he purchased from Studebaker for his 'Plain Brown Wrapper' years ago.

 

George Krem's R3 has a Studebaker factory engine number, R3SK312.

Paxton engine number, B-44.

[mfg]

On 7/5/2020 at 6:09 PM, regnalbob said:

That engine would have been used in an Avanti.

An R3 used in a Lark or Hawk would have a JTR3S prefix.

 

George Krem's R3 has a Studebaker factory engine number, R3SK312.

 

As Mr. Krem purchased his R3 engine from Studebaker several months after the closing, this info helps confirm my contention that 'R3SM305' and 'R3SK312' were both destined for 'production line' installation.......... (Unfortunately Studebaker ran out of time!)

Also, I disagree with your assuming that either engine would necessarily have been used in an Avanti, as R3 'factory install' engine serial numbers were no doubt separate from the garden variety R1's and R2's.

The one and only 1964 'production line' R3 Commander is a good example of that, with factory R3  engine number of R3-SN320...... Paxton # B-47.

Edited July 7, 2020 by mfg
spelling

[64Avanti]

Can you post a picture showing the "Casting Number."  Those heads have to be modified R2s.  The intake manifold clearly doesn't have R3 size ports.  We never had any finished R3 heads.  When we purchased the parts from Paxton the heads were long gone.

[Rags63]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:52 PM, 64Avanti said:

Can you post a picture showing the "Casting Number."  Those heads have to be modified R2s.  The intake manifold clearly doesn't have R3 size ports.  We never had any finished R3 heads.  When we purchased the parts from Paxton the heads were long gone.

Here are a picture of the head

[PackardV8]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:52 PM, 64Avanti said:

Can you post a picture showing the "Casting Number."  Those heads have to be modified R2s.  The intake manifold clearly doesn't have R3 size ports.  We never had any finished R3 heads.  When we purchased the parts from Paxton the heads were long gone.

Quote

Heads with casting number 1555479 are R3 or R4 heads.

http://www.studebaker-info.org/R3parts/r3headsa.jpg

That hand-stamped number doesn't appear to be a casting number, which by definition is part of the molding process.  Only the person who did it can confirm, but since Studebaker never stamped anything "STU-V", insn't it likely as part of their rebuild of the engine, STU-V ground off the OEM casting number, modified the head and stamped their own identifier?

jack vines

Edited November 8, 2020 by PackardV8

[mfg]

I have a cast iron Stude V8 dual quad manifold in my pile of parts....Interestingly, it was custom made by a good welder using a ? twin four barrel cast top brazed onto a 'hogged out' Avanti 'R type manifold.....Twin AFB's are mounted on it ....I've never tried it in operation.

[PackardV8]

59 minutes ago, mfg said:

I have a cast iron Stude V8 dual quad manifold in my pile of parts....Interestingly, it was custom made by a good welder using a ? twin four barrel cast top brazed onto a 'hogged out' Avanti 'R type manifold.....Twin AFB's are mounted on it ....I've never tried it in operation.

That's a new one on me and one I'd never have considered attempting.  Close-up photo?

jack vines

[mfg]

21 hours ago, PackardV8 said:

That's a new one on me and one I'd never have considered attempting.  Close-up photo?

jack vines

It is unusual!....... I posted several photos of this manifold on the SDC Forum a few years ago. I believe that the narcisistic administrator of that forum eliminated all my material after I told him I was quitting.

(I actually quit the SDC, and will not return until the current SDC Forum administrator is replaced.)

Anyway, I'll post photos of this unusual Stude V8 dual quad setup on this forum as soon as I can access it.

[Rags63]

I was going through some boxes over the weekend and found some emblems. I was wondering if you could buy these or if it was something my grand father had made. Here is a picture of them hopefully someone can help me out.

[Gunslinger]

They're very rare side front quarter panel emblems for Lark-type cars and Hawks that would have been equipped with the "Super" package for 1964.  Most will say R-1 or R-2...the R-3 and R-4 are exceedingly rare and desirable...unless they're reproduction of which some were made...probably more repops than genuine emblems like those exist.  

[Skip Lackie]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:15 AM, mfg said:

Hmmm....my opinion on your thoughts (for what it's worth) is this.......I doubt there would be a factory serial number on this R3 block if were built as a warranty engine.....We know that Studebaker V8 replacement engines either had a 'cloverleaf' on the serial pad, or nothing there at all.

 

 

Deleted -- duplicate

Edited November 21, 2020 by Skip Lackie

[Skip Lackie]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:15 AM, mfg said:

Hmmm....my opinion on your thoughts (for what it's worth) is this.......I doubt there would be a factory serial number on this R3 block if were built as a warranty engine.....We know that Studebaker V8 replacement engines either had a 'cloverleaf' on the serial pad, or nothing there at all.

 

 

A very minor nitpick to the above reference to the cloverleaf symbol.  The cloverleaf symbol (with or without an accompanying serial number) indicated a HD engine, intended for use in trucks, police cars, etc.  As noted in the truck parts books, the cloverleaf 289s had HD main and rod bearings, chrome top rings, and an aluminum timing gear.  Some or all of these parts were also used in other engines.  Cloverleaf-marked engines came as standard equipment in the two-ton model E40 trucks and were optional in other models.

The cloverleaf association with replacement engines came when Newman & Altman ran out of non-cloverleaf replacement 289s around 1980, and then started substituting their remaining supply of cloverleaf 289s.  Those receiving them concluded that the cloverleaf symbol meant replacement engine, which it did not.

[mfg]

7 hours ago, Skip Lackie said:

A very minor nitpick to the above reference to the cloverleaf symbol.  The cloverleaf symbol (with or without an accompanying serial number) indicated a HD engine, intended for use in trucks, police cars, etc.  As noted in the truck parts books, the cloverleaf 289s had HD main and rod bearings, chrome top rings, and an aluminum timing gear.  Some or all of these parts were also used in other engines.  Cloverleaf-marked engines came as standard equipment in the two-ton model E40 trucks and were optional in other models.

The cloverleaf association with replacement engines came when Newman & Altman ran out of non-cloverleaf replacement 289s around 1980, and then started substituting their remaining supply of cloverleaf 289s.  Those receiving them concluded that the cloverleaf symbol meant replacement engine, which it did not.

Thank you for the clarification.....Ed

[Mark63Avanti]

Regarding whether the engine was intended for a production vehicle, did Studebaker or Newman-Altman keep the loaded production orders for the cars in cue to be built? If we knew how many orders were taken for R3 R4 cars.....

[Gunslinger]

Avanti Motors purchased all Avanti materials from Studebaker...if such documents existed they should have been part of the purchase package and delivered to Avanti Motors.  Now if they existed and if they were transferred to Avanti Motors is the question.

An alternative is to make a request of the Studebaker National Museum as they should have any records Avanti Motors didn't receive.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Gunslinger

[Skip Lackie]

I don't think there are any records of cars ordered but not built.  I spent some time in South Bend in the 70s and 80s, and there were file cabinets full of production orders stored in the stairwell at Avanti Parts Corp.  They included only POs from vehicles that were completed. As I recall (would be glad to be corrected), Studebaker refused to accept any new orders for Avantis or trucks after they had announced the closure of the SB plant.  They built all vehicles for which they had orders, and then closed the plant.  Not saying that maybe an order from a special customer might not have been honored, but I don't think that there were any ordered, but un-built, vehicles in the queue. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Skip Lackie