Gunslinger
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Posts posted by Gunslinger
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I agree completely. I guess the author of the book never heard of people having the freedom to buy and drive whatever they like, and who cares what his opinion is.
The fact is, the Avanti (specifically the Stude variety, but the Avanti II should qualify even more) is a certified Milestone Car. To attain Milestone status, it has to excel in five categories...the model should be distinctive because of Styling, Engineering, Performance, Innovation, and Craftsmanship-relative to their contemporaries.
There are not very many cars that qualify as Milestone Cars. The rub is that just because a car attains that status, it doesn't necessarily translate to values. Look at the values of Mopars with Hemi's or 440 engines...while I believe Mopar made some of the most bulletproof engines and transmissions of anyone, the rest of their cars were crap...weak electrical systems, tinny bodies, cheap materials in the interior, etc. There should be no real way they should be pulling the money they are, but the fact is they are.
Early on, the Avanti was derided as only a Lark in a guilded cage. Well, what was a Mustang but a pedestrian Falcon with a different body? How it was promoted made a big difference, among other things (being available where the Avanti had major production bottlenecks helped as well).
The Avanti has always been an automobile for those who not only like something different, but something a cut above as well. Does the car have a troubled past and maybe future? Yes, but maybe that's part of the mystique.
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Jerry...
I'm pretty clueless on lowering an Avanti, but as far as the air cleaner not having clearance, unless you're determined to retain the air cleaner you have, there are many drop base air cleaners on the market. One of them may do what you want without resorting to a hood bulge.
On my '70 which is still being reassembled, I know I'm going to have air cleaner issues when it get to that point. It looks that the air cleaner I prefer likely won't clear, so I've been looking at options...some I'm OK with, some I may simply have to live with if it comes to that.
I'm hoping a drop base air cleaner will work off the throttle body of the EFI. If not, my next choice will be the Holley Hi Tek air cleaner, which is kind of unusual looking to my eyes...it reminds me of Princess Leia's hair in Start Wars, with two air filter elements...one on either side of the throttle body. It's not inexpensive either, but may be my best way to go. I'm guessing my last choice will be to use a carburetor bonnet, like for a supercharger and use a tapered cone air filter attached to it. It will get worked out...just a matter of which way is best.
You have options. I'd hate to see you cut your hood for a bulge or scoop.
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I had a 700R4 installed in my '70, but as you said...that's a GM powered car. You can buy a really high quality bell housing adapter to use a GM transmission in a Stude powered Avanti from Jon Myers. They're aluminum and a really nice piece...well engineered and fabricated.
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Wayne...
Looks like you found your solution. The best I've come up with is a refernce that states the master cylinder is either from a '70 Dodge Polara or a '68 Dodge Charger with drum brakes, and I'm pretty sure they're both the four bolt variety.
The only other thing I've come up with so far is a master cylinder rebuild kit, but the list doesn't say if it's for the four bolt ot two bolt style. The number is Bendix 2800.
Either way, it looks like you've got the information you need.
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Wayne...
I've also read where the dual master cylinder on Avanti II's were either a Ford unit or a Mopar unit, depending on model year. I believe the change came about the '71 model year. My '70 is an August '70 unit, and it has the earlier 4-bolt master cylinder, so the change to the 2-bolt and different booster must have come after that. There were some changes to the rear brakes after that as well, so I'm assuming the master cylinder and booster were changed at the same time.
Somewhere I may have the information on what the specific application was. It might take a day or so but I'll see what I can come up with for you. That way you can check price from a local supplier against what the Stude and Avanti suppliers might be asking.
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Jerry...
I'm not sure what difference in color you might see. Most DOT 5 fluids I've are a purple color. DOT 3 fluid is generally near clear looking. If they get mixed you'll generally see a murky and cloudy mixture in the master cylinder reservoir.
The problem with accidently mixing the two fluids is they're chemcially incompatible and results in a very mushy brake pedal.
Just to make sure...and brakes are so important I wouldn't take the chance myself, I would have the whole system fully flushed and fresh fluid of whatever type added. I would also make a tag (or get a reproduction decal from Nostalgia or Stude Internat'l) that states DOT 5 only and mount it prominently, if you decide to go with DOT 5.
Twenty plus years ago I put DOT 5 in my '63 R1, and knew nothing about the incompatibility of the fluids. I definitely suffered loss of brake pedal and loss of brake feel. Not completely, but enough to cause concern. A few months later my brakes failed completely but I was able to stop the car without incident. In my case the master cylinder went bad suddenly, but I can't say it had anything to do with the type fluid. It may have been coincidental.
If you do flush the system and replace it with DOT 5, make sure the system is completely flushed and dry...no moisture at all leftover. DOT 5 is great, but don't use it in a car with ABS or traction control. One drawback with DOT 5 is it can aerate and the ABS activation can cause that. I'm not aware of any performance car made today that doesn't prohibit DOT 5 in the car's brake system.
As far as adding rear disc brakes to your car, I guess a lot depends on how much you drive the car. For pleasure driving only I don't see any advantage to it. It's a lot of expense and work, plus you will likely have to run different wheels on the car to clear the calipers. I considered adding either the Turner or Steeltech systems to the front of my '70, but having to buy new wheels when my Magnum 500's are like new seemed a waste, as well as the added expense. My car, when it's done, is a pleasure car only and won't be driven hard, so the stock system should be more than adequate.
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Yeah Joe...they are. They're supposed to be about as good as it gets for cast iron manifolds. My understanding is they're hard to improve on without going to tuned long-tube headers.
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I agree. Without sending your car to a custom header builder, I doubt if you're going to find long-tube headers to fit. That would not be cost effective.
On my '70, the speed shop that installed the new crate engine added ceramic coated Sanderson headers of the block hugger design. They fit great, look great, and leave plenty of space for plug wires, steering components, etc. Sanderson also has the thickest flanges I've ever seen on headers to keep the bolts from backing out and creating leaks.
The original exhaust manifolds used on the earlier Avanti II's is the standard "Ram's Horn" manifolds. They can be found in junk yards and also as new reproductions through the Corvette restoration catalogs. The repros are somewhat expensive, so again, I think the header options would be more cost effective.
If you want to see photos of the installation of mine, I have a photo album of mine on the Avanti Yahoo group under RQB1574 reconstruction. You can see what it looks like before the body was re-mated to the frame.
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I don't know the part number for the master cylinder, but I believe you can obtain one from Studebaker International, Nostalgia Motors or Jon Myers.
To check the brake booster, pull the vacuum line while the engine is running. If the booster is good, the engine will suddenly start running badly from the massive vacuum leak. If the engine runs the same, the booster is bad as it must have been leaking internally. Plug the vacuum hose and the engine should start running normally again.
You lack of pedal after adding fluid to the master cylinder could be due to massive amounts of air in the lines that need bled out. Another possible issue is the type of fluid...Avanti Motors back then put DOT 5 silicone fluid in the system...you may have added DOT 3 and the two are not compatible...in fact a very bad and potentially hazardous mixture. Poor brake pedal would be the least of your possible issues if they've been mixed.
If the car has been sitting as long as you say, the entire braking system should definitely be rebuilt...new master cylinder (booster if neceesary), rebuild the calipers and wheel cylinders, new pads and brake shoes as at least some are likely to be fluid soaked and new rubber hoses. You may well need new metal tubing...this would be the time to do it. Safety first...if your car's brakes can't stop you, it doesn't matter how nice the rest of the car is when you hit something.
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Prof. Aqualung...
A bit off topic...but we both have '70 Avanti's and '69 427 Vettes! Just goes to show great minds think alike.
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Here's the primary article on the oil subject...it describes it far better than I'm able to...
<http://www.racingheadservice.com/Information/ArticleDetails.asp?ID=-1228096506>
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The reason many are now recommending the use of diesel approved oils is because of newer automotive motor oils have reduced certain additives that protect camshafts, rocker arms and lifters. I don't have the specific information closeby, but I have read a number of articles on this.
Modern pushrod engines have roller rocker valve trains and due to their inherent lesser friction (and newer EPA regulations), some chemicals have been reduced or removed from oil packages. These are the same chemicals that protect the camshaft, rocker arms and lifters from excessive wear, particularly within the first 1000 miles or so of an engine's life...the break-in period. Many companies report a big increase in camshaft failures due to this.
There are several recommended ways to protect your engine. One is to carefully assemble it with the assembly lube shipped with new cams. Another is to use oils such as Shell Rotella which is designed for diesel applications but also automotive as well. It still has the additives flat tappet engines need....but may not in the future as standards and the market dictates.
One thing you can do is use a GM additive available through dealers. It's an engine pre-lube, but essentially is the GM version of STP Oil Treatment, and much more expensive than STP...something like about $8 per container aginst $2-$3 for STP.
The problem exists primarily for new, not yet broken in engines, but potentially other engines are at risk as well. How high the risk might be is open to debate...maybe none at all, but it's enough to raise eyebrows.
I would think the smart thing to do is maintain a regular oil change schedule, and either use an oil like the Shell Rotella, or a quality oil of your choice with a bottle of STP.
If I can come up with any articles on the subject I'll post them here.
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Manual chokes were not factory installed. The Carter AFB carburetors came with an automatic choke. If the car still has the original carb, either the choke is inoperative or someone didn't like it. Maybe the carb has been replaced?
Enjoy the car and share your experiences with us.
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Avanti's are wonderful cars. They definitely have their quirks, but essentially everything is based on solid engineering. Most parts for an Avanti are available...sometimes pricey, but you can find just about any parts you need. I'm in the middle of a body-off reconstruction of a '70 Avanti II and there's only one small part I've been completely unable to find a replacement for...and it's just for aesthetic purposes anyway, not because it's malfunctioning.
The biggest problem I've run into with older cars, not just Avanti's, is undoing what past owners have done to them before something can be fixed correctly. In the Corvette fraternity it's referred to "Bubba mechanics" and Bubba does some strange and unsafe things to cars. Since your car has been in your family all these years, it doesn't sound like you'll have that headache to deal with.
Don't be afraid to ask questions. There's a lot of help here...lots of experience and hard won knowledge.
You have a special Avanti...all that family history attached to it. Again...welcome.
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You have my sympathies for the loss of your Dad. It's always tough to lose a loved one.
With Avanti's, round or square from headlights, it really doesn't matter what their VIN is or when they were made as much as how it was originally titled by the dealer. If it's registered as a '64, it's a '64. As far as parts, you go by the VIN to get the correct parts for repair or restoration.
Since Stude Avanti's didn't have a VIN code that designated model year, it wasn't uncommon at all for dealers to title one as a '64 regardless of assembly date. An R1 a friend used to own was titled as a '64 even though by serial number it was about 1000 units older than my '63 R1. Cars today have date codes in their VIN to keep such shennanigans from going on.
Your car may well be one of the few accepted as a "true" '64 instead of a '63 titled as such. It's kind of a transition car, with items installed that earlier cars and later cars don't have. Regardless, use the VIN for most purposes. That will be more accurate instead of using the model year in just about any case.
Welocme to the club and look forwrad to hear your experiences. A lot of help you might require is here as well.
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They're the same Magnum 500 wheel that Ford and Chrysler used. The difference was the emblem in the cap and the fact that Ford and Mopar generally, if not exclusively, used 14" wheels while Avanti used 15". All three manufacturers use the same 4 1/2" bolt circle.
The only current manufacturer of Magnum 500 reproduction wheels now (as far as I know) is Wheel Vintiques. There are a number of resellers for them and prices seem to be pretty comparable across the board. Motorspot is likely a reseller of Wheel Vintique products.
Every now and then you might see a used Magnum 500 on Ebay. I don't know where you live, but if you're close enough to Carlisle, PA, their Spring swap meet is this week. I wouldn't be surpised to find some Magnum 500's there for sale...used and new. Carlisle is a Mecca for postwar car parts.
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I have a '70 as well. I believe the Magnum 500's are 15"x6" but I'm not sure. They could be 7" wide, but I think 6" is correct. That would be appropriate for 78, 75 and 70 series tires. I don't believe Avanti Motors installed 60 series tires on them at that time, if ever, and 7" wide wheel would have been appropriate for them.
Magnum 500's aren't being made anymore by the original manufacturer, but are available by a reproduction supplier. You should be able to find them through Coker Tire, Summit Racing and several other vendors. They're even made now in 16" and 17" sizes.
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Nostalgic does have the records for Avanti's from late '80s forward. It costs about $20 to get a production order.
An e-mail I sent Avanti came back the same way.
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Even though it's been a while, I used to sell tires. While you can make some generalizations, all is not equal in the tire world. To my way of thinking, tire selection is so important that even the absolute best tires are barely good enough. A quality 75 series tire can outperform a 60 or wider series tire of lesser quality, the same goes for the opposite situation as well.
You need to decide on what kind of driving you do...cruising and highway, autocross, etc. Do you want long life in the tires? High performance tires and long tread life are pretty much mutually exclusive. It has to do with tread compounds. A sticky, great handling tire will wear out faster than a long wearing, harder rubber compound tire. To get one thing, you have to give up something else. The trick is finding the best compromise for your style driving.
You should try and find a tire with an overall diameter as close as possible to the original size for an Avanti. Even if you go wider, get the overall diameter correct. To do otherwise will cause an error in your speedometer and odometer which can hurt (or help) your fuel mileage. If you go to a bigger diameter tire, you can improve your fuel mileage, but it will hurt acceleration at take off and possibly put added stress on the rear end and transmission, but that's unlikely unless you go to extremes in tire sizes. If your Avanti suffers from the common problem of compressed front coil springs, a larger (wider) tire could hit the body when hitting bumps or bottoming out.
Determine the use your car will be given then buy the tires that best suit that. You may be going for a look as much as anything else, and that's certainly to be taken into consideration.
It seems to be a fact in today's automotive world that most, if not all the research and development and manufacturing expertise in tires is going into the larger sizes...16" and above. More and more the tires most all old cars use are not being improved in technology nor are they as widely available as in the past. It's just a part of supply and demand...new car manufacturers are equipping new cars with larger diameter tires and the tire companies are servicing that need. They're simply going where their market is.
I believe as time passes, most of the older tire sizes will be phased out by the major companies and left to the niche market suppliers, like Coker and Diamondback Tires.
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What kind of effect or goal do you have in mind by "lowering" the car. Do you want to lower the chassis to be closer to the ground or lower the appearance of the body? They're not the same thing.
To lower the body orientation it's a matter of removing rubber insulators between the body and frame...not really recommended. They're in place to maintain the body being level and insulate it from excessive vibration other than the obvious reason of attaching the body to the frame.
To lower the chassis you can take the car to a qualified spring shop. They can either install somewhat shorter height front coil springs and the same with the rear leaf springs. A pitfall of lowering the front springs is the possibility or even probablility of the front tires hitting the body in a turn or from a severe bounce.
If you're after restoring the original Studebaker Avanti "rake" to the car, that's a body orientation issue...it has nothing to do with the suspension.
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The only place I know of to get a new replacement is Studebaker International. They sell a reproduction roll bar cover but it's not padded...it's solid. You paint it to match. They have new clips and the correct fawn paint as well.
You might look for an upholstery shop to tackle redoing your original or look for someone with a donor car that still has a usable cover to sell.
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Go to the Classic Enterprises website for reference to what I'm suggesting (www.classicent.com). They manufacture a seat anchor repair kit that is a piece of steel formed to match the floor ridge where the front hold down bolts attach the seat track.
See if you or a machine shop can fabricate a bracket similar in concept, but moves the front facing with the mounting holes forward four inches. If that can be done, you can either drill new mounting holes for the two rear hold down bolts or add extensions to the seat's rear brackets to continue to use the factory mounting bolt holes.
This way the seats and seat tracks don't have to be modified and there are no permanent changes to the car. It may require you either get seat belt extensions or longer belts.
I hope I've described this clear enough to understand what I'm getting at. Maybe even Classic Enterprises can fabricate them for you. They make the repair brackets as well as hog troughs. They may be able to come up with something that can work.
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Contact Dan or Betty Booth at Nostalgia Motors. They have the records to provide you with a copy of the production order. 1-800-AVANTI-1.
I believe it's like a $20 fee for the service. Have your VIN handy for them to look it up.
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Let's hope it is just temporary. The factory opened with such fanfare last Fall and now it's boarded up? It certainly doesn't look good.
I like to be an optimistic person, but Avanti Motors has been less than forthcoming with information since it reformed several years ago. We usually find things out way after the fact...after rumors and misinformation go flying about. A lot of this could be avoided if the factory would simply issue regular updates to their website or the AOAI. They don't even keep their website current or even complete...something is forever under construction.
Lowering Springs?? Headliner Trouble
in 1965-83 Avanti
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Jerry...
The speed shop that installed the crate engine and a 700R4 in my '70 has done a rack and pinion conversion to an Avanti in the past. I don't know what their experience was or how well it turned out. They are very careful about what they do and won't do anything that's unsafe or not properly engineered.
There are 4-wheel disc brake kits on the market...Turner and Steeltech come to mind. I don't know how either kit handles the parking brake for the rear, though. My feeling for a shop to do that kind of work would be to allow them to obtain all the parts...that way THEY have to warranty everything, not just their labor. If you provide the parts, some places simply won't do it, or if they do and there's a defect problem, you'll be paying labor several times before it's done right. This way may be somewhat more expensive, but unless you have the tools, facility and knowledge to do it yourself, I believe it's the better way to go. There's also no reason why a shop can't order the entire kit from Turner or Steeltech and add on a reasonable profit...it does take a lot of potential headaches off your shoulders.
As far as any fan issues if you lower the body, if you go with electric fans you can dispense with the fan shroud altogether. Get a fan kit that contains a built in shroud that covers the entire radiator core. One potential issue with electric fans (or too many electrical additions) is by increasing the current draw you might need to upgrade to a higher output alternator, which can require heavier guage wiring, which can require a custom wiring harness, etc. You get the point. Rarely does changing one item not require additional changes to safely accomodate it. I'm not saying this will happen, just it's something to keep in mind when proposing changes. I believe the stock electrical system should be able to handle up to a 100 amp alternator without the need for modifications, but you should check with a custom shop to make sure of that.
Regarding body modifications, you'll need to find a really good custom body shop. I think air dams would look nice on the front of an Avanti...something like the Blake Avanti that raced at Daytona back in the '80s. You would have to watch out for speed bumps and curbs...it might be really easy to damage.
There's lots of things you can do to change the dash without actually modifying the dash itself. In my '70 I had new inlays made up for the guage cluster, console and a/c bezel. There are lots of choices to pick from...brushed aluminum, a variety of wood grains and colors, several colors in carbon fiber, etc. There are also numerous brands and styles of guages available...both analog and digital readouts. You can transfor the dash without actually changing the dash pad and structure at all. If you remove the air conditioing, you can mount guages or a DVD screen in that center bezel. Then again...you're in Florida so I would think you'd want to keep the a/c!
Sounds like you're going to have a killer car when it's done.
Bruce