Gunslinger
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Posts posted by Gunslinger
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Rudy...
Here's the web page I found that Q-jet information <http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/tech_carb_ID_2.html>. I can't vouch for its accuracy but it does support the information you discovered. "Not GM use" can cover a lot of applications. You're correct about 350's in motor homes. Years ago I worked at an RV dealer and many mini-motorhomes came with 350's while the big class A motorhomes used 454's. It's quite possible your Q-jet was used in one. I'm guessing that carburetor of yours was probably was put in the "food chain" of rebuilt carbs for a supplier like NAPA, Pep Boys, JC Whitney, etc., and simply sat on a shelf until purchased and ended up in your car when that engine was installed at whatever point in time. Assembly line rebuilt parts are like that.
Your voltage regulator is under the dash inside the passenger compartment? That is unusual. I've never seen that. The regulator in my '70 was located in the engine bay which is normal. I'm kind of skeptical that was a factory installation, but never say never when it comes to Avanti's.
Let us know what your build sheet says when you receive it.
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Rudy...
Your Quadrajet is not from a Corvette. According to a decoding chart, it's a '77 (you knew that), for an automatic transmission, Federal (non-California) carb...and get this...it's a Checker cab or marine use code! What specific engine it was made for I don't know...a 307, 350, 400, 454...the code doesn't break it down further than that. I guessing probably a 350 as 307's and I believe 400's were 2-barrel carb engines. Maybe someone can correct me if that's incorrect. I would have expected a Checker cab to have been a 2-barrel application as well, but who knows. That does leave us with a marine application it could have been (454's were and are popular marine engines as well as motorhome engines)
Your engine should have originally come with a Delco transistorized ignition and distributor. Avanti Motors began installing them with the RQB series in 1970 as standard equipment and, I can assume, continued that until about '75 when GM started using the HEI distributor in all production. So check your distributor and see if it has points inside the cap. It would still look like the standard Delco distributor with the window on one side...just no points inside. It would also have an electronic ignition control box on the right front inner quarter panel and wiring. If it doesn't have it it should at least have mounting holes where it used to be. My '70 still had that ignition when I bought it.
One thing I've noticed about Avanti Motors, at least by observation and supposition, is that they seemed to be behind GM by a year or so in using some items GM installed as standard. GM went to the alternator with an internal voltage regulator in Corvettes by 1969. My '70 had the old style alternator with an external Delco regulator, and it had its original Corvette 350 300hp engine. Whether this was a cost decision on the part of Avanti Motors to get a better price on older systems, or simply due to large buys of crate engines and accessories for a quantity discount I have no idea. It would tend to support the notion they bought crate engines in some kind of quantity and used them up as needed before ordering more, thus making for a time delay between engine manufacture and installation in a car.
I would love to see research come out with a definitive explanation on how Avanti Motors went about making such decisions...or someone still living with personal knowledge. It could go a long way towards answering those kinds of questions.
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I'm by no means sure of this, but the DH suffix shows it to be a 307 engine. Chevrolet reused suffix codes at times and about the only way you can tell is by the casting dates. The DH suffix was also used for '65 and '66 283 engines, and also '58 and '59 Corvette fuel injected engines, so you can see how confusing it can be. BTW - if that was an original fuelie engine, some Corvette junkies would likely give you big bucks for it! Regardless, if the casting date you found on it is correct, it should be a 307.
You already know it doesn't have the original carburetor since it's from 1977. It sounds like your engine is a mix of parts from different times, not especially hard to understand with a 35+ year old car which could reasonably be assumed to have had parts replaced over the years with different and likely rebuilt parts.
If you have a mind to at any time, drop a crate 350 engine into the car. It will transform it. That's quite likely less expensive than rebuilding the present engine no matter what displacement it is.
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You can find your date of assembly on the sticker on the drivers door jamb...that should give you month and year of assembly. It should be below the lock receiver.
I believe the "CE" part of the numbers on the engine means "Chevrolet Engineering", though some say it means "Crate Engine" or "Chevrolet Engine". CE engines are those either used for warranty replacement or over the counter sales, which is essentially what Avanti Motors bought and installed. Crate engines could definitely have sat for awhile before installation in a car. I don't know if Avanti Motors ordered crate engines as needed them, or bought ahead and stored them until needed, to save money on a group purchase of engines.
At least through 1970, Avanti Motors installed first a 327 300 hp Corvette engine, then about 1970, the 350 300 hp engine, which is, I believe, the L48 Corvette engine. '71 could have still been the same, but that's about when GM started reducing compression ratios and hp ratings, though the L48 designation stayed the same.
I don't think Avanti Motors added the car's VIN to the engine ID pad, but they did record the engine numbers on the build sheet. You can get a copy of the build sheet from Nostalgic Motors. That should tell you if you have the original engine in your car. After this many years, your car could definitely have a replacement engine for any number of reasons.
I have a pretty comprehensive book on Chevy engine casting numbers and codes. I'll have to find it and see if I can give you a more definitive answer about your engine. It may be a day or so, but I'll look for it.
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Call Dan and Betty Booth at Nostalgic Motors (1-800-AVANTI-1). I don't think anyone knows Blake-Kelly-Cafaro Avanti's better than Dan does.
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There's an article of great interest regarding modern motor oils and additive packages (a big controversy), plus the advantages and disadvantages of synthetic oils, in the August 2008 issue of Corvette Fever.
I'm not vouching for the accuracy of the article, but it does make for good reading and provokes some serious thought about what we put in our cars...particularly older engines with flat tappet lifters. It's also about more than the lifters and cams...problems with main bearings as well that have been cropping up.
It's not posted on their website, so anyone interested in reading it will have to spring for the magazine or find someone with a copy.
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Auto Meter makes an adjustable sending unit. The Avanti would use the number 3262 sending unit which is 240 ohm/33 ohm. If you wanted to do it without measuring and adjusting, etc., Jon Myers sells a new reproduction sending unit that fits and works beautifully. It's a bit more expensive than the Auto Meter universal sender, but takes much less time.
I installed the Myer's unit and it seems to be quite accurate.
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The mirror is mounted above the dash about 8"
The mirror was mounted on the glass on production models. The early prototypes had the mirror mounted on a ball socket on the dash itself, similar to many Chrysler cars of the period. If his Dad's Avanti has the dash mounted mirror, it's one of the original prototypes, unless someone swapped out the dash.
Back in the early '70s, the first Avanti I ever looked at hoping to buy had the dash mounted mirror. I distinctly remember that because it was like a '61 Chrysler my Dad owned. I wasn't able to swing the money for the car, and it wasn't until several years later after I bought my first Avanti and did some research that I realized I could have had a prototype car. If I only knew...I would have found the money somewhere.
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Sounds like somebody's pipe dream to me...or maybe trying to scrounge up investors for a start-up. It could be a scam as well to bilk investors.
Wonder if they secured the rights to the Studebaker name?
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That looks right. I have no idea if it still does, but I always was under the impression the number would identify the year the lens was approved for use...not necessarily the model year of the car...maybe the model year of the car it's designed for. That number is the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) approval number I would guess. The Ford part number would be different...possibly molded into the inside of the lens.
On my '70, the tail light lenses say Stude 1962 on them. That must have been prior to any standardized approval numbers on such parts.
On my '02, I know the door handles are GM...from an Oldsmobile Aurora I believe. They look like Corvette '97-'04 door handles, but the Vette handles don't have the key lock in it.
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The red Avanti convertible in the background of that photo may be mine...it was one of two red convertibles with gray interiors used in auto shows and print and internet ads.
I checked the lenses on my car for you. I believe Avanti had their own lens molding facility for the cars, but the lenses you're asking about have a nice oval with the "Ford" logo molded into it. The numbers molded in each lens are:
SAE AP2 96TS L (for left)
SAE AP2 96TS R (for right)
Hopefully those numbers can help you run them down. If you can identify what Ford vehicle they're from, let us know. It will help the data base.
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If you go back to sales literature and news stories during the Newman-Altman years, they generally stated they built less than 300 per year. That was a true statement as they usually built around 100 cars per year. It wasn't until Blake owned the company that production increased anywhere near the 300 number, and we all know how that turned out! Increasing production didn't create Steve Blake's downfall...he made so many changes so fast, plus the paint debacle combined with new body molding processes being instituted without proper testing first to see if there were any compatibility issues, such problems could and should have been foreseen, but that's in hindsight. Then there was the Avanti GT and racing effort...worthwhile in concept, but again in hindsight, should have been delayed until the company was firm ground, financially and production issues ironed out. As it was, spending all that capital on those efforts would have been better invested in the basic product.
I have my '02 and '70 Avanti's parked side by side in the garage...the '70 is longer, more interior room, a bigger and more usable trunk. The '02 is wider, far more powerful, handles like it's on rails and has more comfortable seats. Of course...there's many years and several generations of automotive technology advances between the two. The '70 sits on a 1950's era chassis design...the '02 sits on a much more modern chassis, with far more aftermarket tweaks available to make it even better. It's really apples and oranges between them.
The dash layout of the '70 is so classic...all the information you need grouped in a logical manner right in front of you. Maybe the only improvement ever on the classic Avanti layout is the HUD display optional on new Corvettes. The worst I can really say about the '02 is that it still carries the Firebird dash and amenities. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's obvious the car's origins. It does get tiring listening to "It's just a re-skinned Camaro". That's almost as bad as constantly hearing "Are they still made in Canada?"
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From John Hull's new book "Avanti", he gives a figure of 53 Avanti's assembled on the Firebird platform from 2001-2004 (I own #20). He gives an approximate figure of 38 built from 2005-2007 on the Ford platform. Mr. Hull stated there are unconfirmed reports of cars sitting on the factory floor in various stages of assembly after the shutdown.
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It's definitely doable. Your old dash pad won't be worth much if anything, as you'll end up tearing it apart to remove it from the dash itself. It's on with adhesive that won't give easily.
While you have the dash out, do as Ernie said...carefully mark all the wiring...do everything he already said. Also, while you're there, change all the light bulbs from all the gauges, courtesy lights and glove box. That's very inexpensive and if your bulbs are original or have any age on them, it's easier to do it now rather than later piecemeal after the dash is re-installed and they start burning out. Also...wrap your steering column with some kind of padding so it doesn't get scratched up. That's all too easy to do during this process.
Ernie's correct about the front speaker...most aftermarket speakers have too big a magnet and won't clear the radio. While you're ordering from SI anyway, get a replacement speaker from them at the same time. Don't ask me how I know that!
One helpful tool to get...I bought from Costco a "headlight"...it is an LED light that bands around your head and the light is on your forehead. Wherever you turn your head the bright light shines. It is VERY helpful when operating under the dash when you need three hands free and no extras to hold a flashlight. Having small hands is a big help as well.
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If you can't contact Nostalgic, you can get the brake hoses from Studebaker International or Jon Myers, and probably some other vendors. The proportioning valve, or more accurately, the distribution block, rarely gives problems so you may not actually need one. I wouldn't buy one from another make vehicle just because it looks the same...it may be very different internally and might have a different front/rear pressure balance. That can either lock up your front brakes too soon or not soon enough.
If you want an adjustable proportioning valve, you can get one through Summit Racing or Jegs, or a local speed shop. That can be installed and the front/rear pressure can be set up best for the car.
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I'm certainly no expert, but it seems reasonable that you would see more than a 2mpg increase with the transmission change. You could likely expect a significant reduction in rpm's at cruising speed and the engine would simply be loafing when not under load. That should result in much better fuel economy as well as reduced engine wear. I've talked to Corvette owners with a TH-350 or -400 that swapped to a 200R4 or 700R4 and many say they get upwards of 22-24 mpg after the swap...not all, as many still don't drive a Vette economically, but they still enjoy the lower rpm's at cruise and better fuel mileage, just not as much as some do.
It will take some period of time for the swap to pay for itself, but reducing engine wear and tear is benefit in itself.
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I appreciate your info on the conversion....I too am thinking of installing an overdrive automatic/injected engine in my '81. Does anyone know of a site which shows this being done in some detail?
Thanks,
Paul
I had Edelbrock fuel injection added to the GM Performance 350HO/330hp crate engine/700R4 installed in my car. The only site I know that shows it is on the Avanti Yahoo group where I have photos of my car being rebuilt. It shows the system on the bare frame and when the body is on. Don't know how much help that might be. Send me a PM if you have any questions and I might be able to answer them for you.
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In my '70 I had the original Borg Warner 3-speed automatic replaced by a 700R4 along with the crate engine. I only have about 600 miles on the car since it was all done so I really don't have a handle on fuel economy yet...haven't even tried to figure the mileage at all, but it really does idle down the road at 70-80 mph. It has a 3.31 rear and can really smoke the tires if I'm not careful.
There was no serious issues at all for the speed shop that did the work...the 700R4 fit fine within the transmission tunnel and there was no problem locating the rear support. The only thing one could call a truly custom touch was they couldn't re-use the stock back-up switch and reverse light switch and had to fabricate new brackets due to clearance problems with the exhaust.
I had to get a new driveshaft so I went with an aluminum unit to reduce rotating mass. It wasn't much more expensive.
If you have the opportunity to install an overdrive tranny, you won't go wrong with either a 200R4 or a 700R4. The 200 should be a near drop-in since the length should be the same and you can re-use the driveshaft as is...unless there's something different about a short-shaft Hydramatic.
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I really feel for ya! That really sucks after all the work you put into the car...not even counting the financial outlay! It doesn't sound like the insurance will cover all the investment into the car...mine is under-insured as well. Rebuilding my '70 cost more than the market value...not at all unusual for cars today.
Hope you can find a buyer for the remains of your car and you can find a replacement that suits you. There are a couple Avanti's for sale in Avanti Magazine right now...including one in Long Island...not far from you in Jersey. Outside of that, keep an eye on Ebay and see what is available.
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I don't know an interchange, but they do show up on Ebay fairly regularly. You might also contact Jon Myers or Nostalgic Motors and see if they have any...maybe a good used one if nothing else.
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I have the 3M invisible bra on my '02. It's very difficult to see unless you're right up on the car. It is easy to remove...just peels off, but why would you? It's difficult to install properly...very time consuming to do it right. Since there's no pattern available for an Avanti, the installer had to custom cut it, fit it and heat it before actually applying it, then make sure there were no air bubbles.
It took about 4-5 hours to do it right.
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I've seen two different designs (round and square headlight type) with two different methods of installation. I've owned each and still have one for my '70. One is definitely easier to install than the other. I don't know who originally made and sold each...the one from years ago wasn't that good a design...the top edge would flap in the wind and beat against the paint ahead of the hood line. I had to run bungie cords through it and attach them under the hood to keep that from happening.
The one I have now is a better design...goes on fast and doesn't flap in the wind. Again, I have no idea who manufactured it...I bought it several years ago off Ebay.
You might try Studebaker International...I believe they used to sell them. Maybe they might have one or two still still floating around or possibly a good used one. There's other vendors as well to try.
Maybe someone here might have one to sell. If nothing else, maybe a good upholstery shop can fabricate one for you.
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I bet this design goes back to '53. I wonder how secure these bushings are, especially with modern tire loads?
Dave
You have a point about the tire loads. Tires today have far more adhesion than the tires available when this 50+ year old suspension and chassis was first designed. Since the tires today grip better it shows off the deficiencies of the design...particularly if there's any wear at all in the bushings, steering box, tie rods, etc. The use of modern tires (wider tread and greater adhesion) with any kind of spirited driving may well increase the wear rate of the parts.
The suspension was designed with tires of the day in mind. It wasn't expected to last forever or there wouldn't be any need for new cars and new designs.
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Hopefully someone can give you the name of a good shop close to Tampa, but if distance isn't a big issue, I can recommend the shop here in Maryland that did the reconstruction of my '70. Mine was the first Avanti they had ever done so a second should go easier since they've had their learning curve. They did outstanding work and are very familiar with fiberglass cars as they specialize in Corvettes and other restorations.
There's also an excellent speed shop very close to them that can do custom work.
Send me a PM if you're interested.
Engine Identification
in 1965-83 Avanti
Posted
That certainly clears up a lot of confusion. It shows the complexity of the engine codes when we all thought it was for a 307 rather than a 350.
Your build sheet likely wouldn't mention power brakes as all Avanti's...Studebaker and Avanti II's came standard with that feature.
Now the hard work begins...owning the car!