Gunslinger
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Posts posted by Gunslinger
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I believe they did...the only thing that changed was the power steering pump and reservoir...GM.
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The finned aluminum valve covers seemed to be standard for Avanti Motors to install after about 1970...I'm guessing when they went to the 350 from the 327 for the "RQB" series. My '70 came with those valve covers which are generally thought of as LT-1 or L82 valve covers, but it's not quite accurate to call them that...Camaro's used them as well depending on the model. Prior to that they used chrome valve covers even though Corvettes didn't have them on that engine. By '78, the L82 Corvette came with black finned covers.
The shielding over the plug wires is for protection against radio frequency interference. Corvettes had it as well, but it's because of the fiberglass body and no other reason...to keep the radio from having such interference.
Does your car have the expansion tank eliminator kit? In place of the big tank it would have two pieces of upper hose connected by a metal tube with a radiator cap and neck, with an overflow tube to a plastic tank by one hood hinge. If so, I'm pretty sure Nostalgic Motors or Studebaker International should have those hoses, though I believe they might still need trimming. I would think any lower hose for any Avanti II through about 1985 should be the same. Look for a Gates 20046 lower hose...that should be correct.
Whatever you find that fits correctly...hoses, belts, water pump, etc., keep a note of it for the future should you need to replace them again at a later date. Even keeping a spare set of belts and hoses might be a good thing for emergencies.
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Your best source is right here. There is a lot of knowledge and experience here among Avanti lovers. Experience is defined as what you get when you don't get what you want, so most here are quite experienced.
To answer your other questions, I'll try...
The only interchange guide on-line I'm aware of is on the Avanti Source website. It's for the "RQA" series Avanti II, not the "RQB", and there are changes. You can certainly refer to it, but the interchanges may not be accurate to an "RQB".
When you want basic parts, just say it's a '78 Chevy 350 (I assume it's the original engine)...that should get you most of what you need, but not always. For some items, like a water pump, it's not quite so easy. There are long Chevy water pumps, short water pumps and Corvette water pumps. They fit the same but their length varies according to the application and pulleys won't line up properly if you have the wrong one. For something like a water pump you may have to take the old one in and match it up. It's likely the short or Corvette pump...I'm not sure of a '78 application.
Belts may or may not be the same as a standard small block from '78. That can depend on whether Avanti Motors was using the GM a/c compressor by that time or they installed the older York design from previous years. Again...matching belts up at a supplier could be necessary. There are application charts available, but that's assuming no previous owner changed anything, or that Avanti Motors didn't. They would make changes without any announcement or updating to application guides it seems.
For upper and lower radiator hoses, the same thing goes...you can order them from suppliers like Studebaker International and Nostalgic Motors, but that also assumes a previous owner hasn't changed anything, which is quite prevalent. They can matched at a supplier...often a proper shaped hose is found but you have to trim it to length...no big deal at all. Heater hoses are standard hoses you buy and cut to length.
Oil filters...standard small block Chevy for a '78. Spark plugs should be the same. You'll need to see what the horsepower rating is to make sure of that. I believe the engine used that year was a Camaro 350. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Starting around 1971, the rear brakes changed, so you have to keep that in mind when servicing them.
There is no shop or parts manual for a post-Studebaker Avanti I'm aware of. If you don't already have copies of the Studebaker parts and shop manuals, get them. While there are definitely some differences post-Studebaker, the manuals are still invaluable for doing anything on that car. You're probably already aware of vendors like Studebaker International, Nostalgic Motors and Jon Myer's Studebaker...they are probably the prime suppliers but there are others.
Any other questions you have, simply ask here. You're not asking anything that any number of us haven't already had to find an answer for. Avanti II's are not voodoo, they are great cars there is no reason why a parts counter guy has to look at you like a deer caught in the headlights when you tell him what you need parts for.
One nice thing about Avanti II's...they were all built to order and there is no true factory standard of what's original. You can make changes and customize them to suit your personal tastes and not hurt its value as long as it's well done.
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As seen in a previous post...
"A couple of really good "how to" illustrated articles written by owners who had done the dash removal: Nils Straaaiveit article on pages 38 and 39 of issue 82 - Fall/Winter 1992, and Nick Berger's article on pages 8-12 of issue 92 - Summer 1995. Berger also had photos of how Just Dashes made his new dashboard."
Could anyone send me copies of these articles...I really don't want to spend $100 for the CD just now (I'm in the middle of an Avanti restoration...you know how it goes...
)I'll be glad to reimburse postage/copy costs.
Thanks...
John
Send me a PM with your mailing address and I'll make copies for you and forward them. Don't worry about the postage.
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I don't know the answer to how the steering wheel is put together, but for having it restored, contact Gary's Steering Wheel Restoration in Carlisle, PA. I've seen their work and it's beautiful. His website is <http://www.garyssteeringwheel.com/>.
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I have a mint '63 I just bought....sure would like to get a set of original looking mags (Halibrand or whatever) that would be correct to the period. Not chrome.....
Talk to Jon Myers of Myers Studebaker. They've contacted with Halibrand who will make a new run of that wheel...if a minimum number of wheels is ordered to make it worthwhile. I asked once and the cost is not cheap...something like $2400 per set. I don't think they have the minimum orders needed yet so if that interests you it's an option.
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Looking at Studebaker International's catalog, the bellcranks are the same and the tie rod itself is the same for all '51-'66 cars and Avanti's through '85. The tie rod ends are the same as '64-'66 cars and Avanti's '64-'85. The parts available from them but are not inexpensive...there's also a core charge of $100 for the bellcrank.
You can look around for vendors that might have the parts cheaper, but most of the time the prices are pretty much the same.
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Joe's is maybe ten miles from me and they are truly a great upholstery shop. I've known Don, the owner, since we each had dark hair. He redid the interior of the '63 Avanti I owned many years ago. He did the vinyl top of another car I owned and the interior of a Corvette I had plus much of the interior of the '70 Avanti I have now...he did the carpeting, made new door panels, repaired the seats, and will be recovering a set of Recaro seats I picked up for the car (in fact, after the seats are done, I'll have a complete set of super nice Avanti seats for sale...hint, hint!).
Regardless, Joe's Upholstery is a great place to deal with. Over the last two years, I've seen a 1920's Packard having it's interior restored, a Kaiser Darrin for the same, a cigarette boat having it's seats redone...this is a well trusted shop. Anyone would do well having them work on their car.
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I always understood Avanti's used the Stude frame until 1985. As already said they changed to the GM frame in '87. I saw it reported in Avanti Magazine (don't remember which issue), that due to a lack of frames the factory used a modified Lark frame that was thinner gauge steel during the late 1970's. Supposedly that was for a couple of years. How accurate that information was I don't know.
My guess for using the 1966-1983 years for this forum is those were the Altman Avanti II years. Following that were the Blake/Kelly/Cafaro years which dropped the "II" from the name. Those are covered by another forum board.
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After all, 70's Avanti II's came with a GM tranny and use a mechanically-driven speedo cable
and they work fine...
Wayne...
FYI...Avanti II's came with the Borg Warner automatic until either late in the '70 model year or sometime in the '71 model year. My '70, a September 1970 build car, came with the B-W, as did Profaqualung's, which is an earlier '70 RQA model (mine is an RQB).
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Is the 85 a GM Chassis? If so there's a ton of stuff available to upgrade the original G Body steering without going to the rack. But if you've made the commitment to the rack and pinion why not just fix the parts that are in need?
ErnieR
1985 was still the Stude chassis. I believe the last year it was used.
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It just goes to show there was not much standardization in the early years of Avanti II production. I've seen engine color painted valve covers and now chrome plated valve covers. It may simply be what came on the engines Avanti Motors purchased. If GM changed the specs on crate engines that's simply what Avanti bought.
My '70 came with the finned aluminum valve covers found on optional Corvette engines...not the base engine which is what Avanti installed. It's generally called the LT-1 valve cover but it came on the optional higher horsepower engines above the base 350/300hp. While that valve cover came on many 350's, I don't believe it came on any 327 engines cars. Avanti Motors could well have bought 350/350hp crate engines if the price was right or base 300hp engines weren't available. There was no horsepower emblems on the cars to note any differences.
I still tend to believe the switch to the chrome Corvette air cleaner coincided with the change to the Quadrajet carburetor. The different size air horn neck from the AFB would have made a change necessary. The only other reason I can believe prompted the change would be if Avanti used up the supply of R1 air cleaners.
Until someone with truly definitive information presents himself, all this looks to be very arguable to any judge. I think more than a few things depended on who the assembly line worker was and how he did things compared to someone else on the car they assembled.
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Early Avanti radios...Studebaker and apparently some early Avanti II's, have speaker grilles that are attached from underneath. The grilles (at least my old '63 R1), had threaded bolts fitted to the lower side of the grille. They fit through holes in the dash and nuts attached from underneath. A nice looking installation but not practical as far as later servicing goes. Possibly why it was changed later. Later cars have clips attached to the mounting holes for the screws to thread through for topside replacement.
Changing a radio is an Avanti...particularly an a/c equipped car, is a nasty job. Radios in most contemporary cars were tough to remove as well, but I don't believe many had to have the dash removed to do so.
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It should have stamped steel valve covers painted engine color with an "Avanti 327" decal that's available through most of the vendors. I have early Avanti II literature showing the engines equipped with R1 air cleaners, and I also have sales literature for the RQB models with photos showing the Corvette style air cleaner installed. At what point the factory made the switch in air cleaners I have a guess.
Not that it matters now, but you may have a point with the air cleaner...it's arguable. It would take someone with really specific knowledge of when the change was made to either support you or the judge. My guess is when Avanti Motors stopped installing the Carter AFB carburetor and went to the Rochester Quadrajet that came on the GM engines...that was model year 1968 for GM and the Corvette. The AFB and Quadrajet had different air horn diameters and that could have forced a change in air cleaners. Since Avanti Motors used crate engines and depending on how often they ordered them and how long it took to use up inventory, it could well have been '69 before making the change. I base that supposition on my '70 RQB1574...it came with the Corvette 350, but still used the alternator with an external voltage regulator even though the Corvette itself went to an internally regulated alternator beginning in the '69 model year.
Does your '69 have the original carburetor? If it is equipped with an AFB, it could well have the wrong style air cleaner. If you have a Quadrajet, then the Corvette style air cleaner would be correct in my opinion. If you have a Holley or other non-original carburetor, there's no way to say with certainty what was original equipment.
The gig on the valve covers is correct...yours are incorrect since they're not original style. I'd go with whatever made me happy with the car and not worry about points in a show...just for that reason my car was in the modified division instead of the Avanti division. If nothing else you could always change to correct valve covers and air cleaner for a judged show.
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My '70 had its original engine when I bought it and it was orange.
To the best of my knowledge, all Chevy engines until about 1977-'78 were painted Chevy Orange. Beginning in late in '77 or early in the '78 model year all GM engines were painted "Corporate Blue" as it's known, even if not the actual name of the color. That came about due to GM mixing engines from various divisions in other division cars and buyers became upset at not knowing about that. They all became "GM engines" at that point.
Also to the best of my knowledge, small and big block engines painted black are crate engines, but I don't know when that began.
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There are several vendors where you can get reproduction black carpeting, so it could definitely look original. The salt and pepper style is very difficult to find or even reproduce.
After all these years, and considering the water leak issues Avanti's had, plus normal wear and tear, I don't believe it's unreasonable to assume most surviving Avanti's in any kind of decent condition have had their carpeting replaced at least once.
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A standard steering wheel puller will work. A gear puller is a different tool. The correct puller is not very expensive at Pep Boys, Auto Zone, Advance Auto or other store. Some stores will even loan them out for free.
Plan on a long afternoon to do it, but as straight forward a procedure as it is, plan on it being a pain in the rear. I'd leave the turn signal stalk on...don't remove any more parts than you have to...don't tempt fate.
Another hint...get a magnet made for magnetizing tools. Magnetize the socket you use to remove the four hold down nuts for the dash...they're real easy to lose if they drop. Even if they aren't lost, it can save time searching for them. Don't ask how I know all this!
Replacing all the ductwork is a good idea. While you're back there, take a good look at everything and fix or replace anything that needs it while you're there anyway. It can save some grief later. Lubricate anything that's movable...like vent cables, etc.
As I said earlier...it's not a tough procedure, but you have to be careful and patient. It's really easy to get frustrated if things don't go so easy.
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There are cutouts to match the gauges. Each gauge is individually set in the dash.
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You're definitely experiencing what many, if not most purchasers of older cars have to deal with...undoing what past owners have done before you can do it correctly.
There is no real way to get the radio out of an Avanti with a/c without pulling the dash...at least no way I've discovered. Maybe someone with tiny hands can get a lot of the effort done, but it's very difficult at best. The glove box doesn't come out...it's molded as part of the dash itself.
Pulling the dash, in concept and procedure anyway, is not a difficult job...but reality gets in the way of working in tight spaces in a 40+ year old car. That...plus the additions Avanti Motors did in adding certain items not in the original design such as driving lights switches, rear defogger switches, etc. Your car may or may not have these. Make sure you have a Studebaker shop manual...it gives step by step instructions.
If you do pull your dash, you can make life a bit easier by removing the steering wheel and the front seats...particularly the driver's seat. It makes for easier moving around on your back. Wrap the steering column with foam padding for its protection. Any wires you remove from gauges, lights, etc., carefully mark them so you can reconnect them correctly. While the dash is out, go ahead and replace every dash and gauge light bulb. They're inexpensive and most are likely old anyway. You don't want to go rooting around under and behind the dash any more than you have to later so take care of them now.
If at all possible when rewiring, use the same color and gauge wires for each application as original. That can save you a lot of grief down the road when needing to identify wires.
While the dash is out, go ahead and replace the front radio speaker...the one there is likely in sad shape from age and sun. Get a dual cone stereo front speaker from Studebaker International. If your car has the single rear speaker, Studebaker International also sells a stereo dual speaker for that as well. You always have the option of adding speakers to the doors as well as the rear package shelf if you care to cut holes for them.
Pulling the dash isn't a really bad job, you have to be careful and patient.
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Does your '85 still have the non-swing type of sunvisor the earlier Avanti's used? If it does, I'd take the visors down, pull out the rods that attach them and slide on some vacuum caps you can find at most auto supply stores and reattach. The vacuum caps will create some friction and take up whatever slack is necessary to keep the visors from flopping down. You may or may not be able to find a color vacuum cap that matches, but it's better than having the sunvisors flopping down in your line of sight.
If nothing else, wrap a little duct tape around the metal rod and it will do the same thing, but will eventually wear away and you'll have to do it again.
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Hope you find what you're looking for. You don't have to jump on the first Avanti you might see available...wait for the right one to come along. You'll be happier in the long run.
Keep in mind...few things are more expensive than a cheap Avanti!
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In my '70 the bracket is a satin black, but that's not saying a '63 would be the same.
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I hope you're getting the car cheap.
Good luck finding a rear glass. New windshields are still available, no so with the rear. You'll have to find a donor car or someone parting out one.
Do yourself a favor with the brakes...spend the money and get the Turner brake conversion kit. Rebuilding or replacing the originals with identical parts will run about as much. While you're at it, convert the single circuit master cylinder to a dual master cylinder. Also install a mechanical brake light switch and eliminate the pressure operated switch...an easy conversion as well with about $10 in parts plus the effort to do it.
The rear brakes will likely need replacing and rebuilding...those parts are available but some parts (like wheel cylinders) are pricey. The original wheel cylinders are likely rusted shut anyway. Replace all the rubber hoses and very carefully check the metal brake lines...they may need replacing as well.
Pull the rear axles and replace the seals and repack or replace the axle bearings.
Before trying to start the engine, remove the spark plugs and squirt in some penetrating oil...let it sit for several days, then try to turn the engine over by hand. The engine may require a complete tear down to make sure everything internally is OK. No way of telling what kind of shape it will be after twenty years. After you determine what you're actually facing with the engine, you can consider simply replacing seals, etc., a rebuild, or replacing it with a crate engine which is usually the most cost effective way to go.
You might consider sourcing a Studebaker engine to put in it, but since the original is gone and will never be original again, I'd stick with a small block Chevy unless you want to make a Studebaker powered resto-mod.
Also...before you spend any time or money on the car, check the hog troughs. If they're gone and require replacing, that is a major undertaking. You would have to consider simply selling it as a parts car or parting it out yourself. Without replacing the hog troughs if they're needed, you're wasting any further money and effort.
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I would tend to believe John Hull's figures are correct. He doesn't have a vested interest in providing inflated figures like the company might when trying to find a buyer. Also...the figures in the article could include sales of used Avanti's as they also has prior generation Avanti's in inventory for sale as well. The sales of Beck and Lister cars could also be included as they were produced by Avanti Motors.
1963 Avanti R2
in 1963-64 Avanti
Posted
That may not be so unusual. I still have the build sheet for the '63 R1 I owned from 1976-1990 and it also shows "X84" and "AC3289 L&R". It's printed on the line right after "72A RADIO&ANT".
AC3289 sounds like an accessory of some sort...what I don't know. L&R suggests left and right. X84 is something I don't recognize either. "SOLD RUSH" suggests it was a car ordered for a specific customer and to rush it through production. A car ordered by a dealer for inventory likely wouldn't have that notation.
I don't remember anything unusual about the '63 I owned...no unusual accessories or anything like that, but it was thirteen years old when I bought it so anything might have been changed by that point.
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about about this will answer the question.