Avanti '63' Brake Calipers.

[aardvark]

Who do I source stock Brake Calipers from?  I've got 1 hanging up and can't even source a rebuild kit, but reality is... I want to source a fresh set.

I'm considering Turner Brakes, and think it would be wise, but outlaying $7-800 is quite a hit for me at this time (rough economy and all). When using Turner Brakes, is it necessary to upgrade the Master Cyl to a dual setup, or can I stay with the Stock setup?  (Yeah, I know.. the Single is inferior, but actually the stock Calipers are as well..The brake pads are foolishly small (size of a Motorcycle i once owned)

So the goal right now is to get my 100% Stock Avanti up and on the road..Later I'll consider changing it up.

[aardvark]

No responses??

[silverstude]

Studebaker-International Catalog Page 248

[regnalbob]

Myer's Studebaker

Studebaker International 

Avanti Parts, Inc.

Nostalgic Avanti

Dave & Janet Thibeault

[mfg]

I like the idea of converting to Turner brakes if you intend to drive your ‘63 Avanti a lot… They are superior for a few reasons….

On the other hand, if you intend to drive your Avanti sparingly (using it basically for auto shows and club meets) I believe overhauling the factory stock brake system is the way to go.

[Mark L]

I'm right in the middle of doing a 4-wheel Turner disc brake conversion. While I'm at it, I'm installing a new dual master cylinder, new brake lines, new brake hoses, and installing flanged rear axles shafts from Myers Studebaker. I'll probably also install a mechanical brake light switch while I'm at it. I'm doing this on evenings and weekends, so I hope to be done by this coming Labor Day (US) weekend.

When I'm done, I plan to sell all of the removed parts, plus sell the new, plain rotors that came with the deluxe kits. I upgraded to drilled and slotted rotors.

Edited August 21 by Mark L

[aardvark]

Thanks for the responses back Y'all. Your feedback is GREAT!

MFG..

When I bought this ''nearly perfect 100% original'' ride. the intent was to drive it nearly daily.. Living in the Mountains with 20-30% grades. brakes are paramount . That said, when researching the costs and seeing what the Original System is, just the cost of brake cylinders will be over $500ish... and that's all I get. No disks or new hardware..  To me, the Original setup, while being innovative and ahead of it's time in 63', is far sub-par to what can be installed today. Reality is sinking in.   I'm after keeping this car 100% Original, but the brake pads are as small as my old BMW Motorcycle, weighing in at 600 lbs...

Bottom line, I think I got the.Original Calipers up and working, Everything else in the System was already replaced before I bought the car.. I won't know know the results until I get the car on the road just how well I did....That said, I think the front brakes are needing upgraded and Turner seems a logical choice.

Mark.

Love what Your doing. I'd like to be there as well.  The dual Master and newer front and rear disks is an Excellent Choice. I do want to go with a dual system..Who's Master are You using (connect me) and is the re-plumbing a big effort?

[aardvark]

Oh and too Ya'll,.. I'm writing down these sources for parts so I have em for future, records.

 

Thanks !!..

[Dwight FitzSimons]

Living near the mountains is what has scared me into replacing the front brakes on my all original '64 Avanti.  For me, the deciding factor is the fact that one cannot stop a Bendix-Dunlop disc-brake Studebaker if one loses the booster.  That can happen if the booster simply goes bad, or the engine quits, or the check valve goes bad.  (If the engine quits you have 1 or 2 stops left.)

Jim Turner has a new-design front disc-brake conversion kit.  He now uses the caliper from late model Chrysler minivans.  The cylinder size is the same as the GM calipers, so the stopping power will be the same.  (The cylinder size is what determines the stopping power, not the pad size.)

Hot Rods and Brakes also sells a kit for Studebakers.  It also uses Ford rotors and GM calipers, but IIRC costs about $150 less than Turner's kit ($550 vs $700).

Turner also sells a dual M.C. kit for Avantis.   So does Dave Thibeault.

The original Bendix-Dunlop disc brakes will do the job if everything in the system is perfect.  Keep that in mind when making your decision.

--Dwight

Edited August 21 by Dwight FitzSimons

[aardvark]

Dwight

Good points..... I disagree a little on the pads not having (any) effect on braking.   Yes the Cylinder is the most important, but the surface area that grabs also plays into things as do the disks (vented unvented). 

I currently have the ''original'' stuff up and working but haven't road tested yet. Still, to my understanding these small pads wear fast. I've got too much $$'s out right now on Collector Cars and need to sell off a few. That's neither here nor there. I do plan on converting to Turner by the end of the year. I also want to abolish the Single Master.  Right now everything has been replaced except the Front Calipers, and they are working, but sub par. Sooo...once I see that everything is working (road test), I'll then go after changing things up for the better.

Before it was everything I could do to get the Car to stop. It seemed to only have about 15-20% braking power.  The Booster was rebuilt (it helped a tad.)..  Next I had the disks de-glazed. Then installed new pads. (time to road test again) Once I know the Booster is good and the real issue is (or was) the disks and pads.  Then it's all about the Calipers.... and changing them out.

This has been a 4 month ...off and on... battle.. I've had the car a year and only have driven it about 10 miles ... Frustrating.

Edited August 22 by aardvark

[aardvark]

Update, 

Got everything together and tried spinning the passenger side wheel and it spins  tight with a pry bar between the wheel studs ...So  it's bound up.

So I tore the assembly off and went to the bench. After playing with the calipers (both sides of the Caliper setup) one side  is froze up.  I placed that side in a vise.. It's tight and won't return even under me cranking on the vise hard..  So I sprayed a little PB Blaster on the piston area and put it under pressure in the vise, where it will sit for a afternoon............I thought the Drivers side was going to give me issues but doing the same on that side seems to have freed everything up and it seems to be releasing fine.

AAAARRRRGGGH,,,!!

[silverstude]

You put the cylinder in a vise and clamped down on the piston, to get it to recede in the cylinder???  

[Mark L]

I bought my master cylinder from Jim Turner.

I bought my brake lines from Inline Tube. I haven't installed them yet.

I bought the drilled/slotted rotors from Brakeperformance.com. Jim Turner only provided plain/smooth rotors in the deluxe kits. He doesn't sell drilled and/or slotted rotors.

I'm still working with the rear brakes, primarily trying to get the emergency brake sorted out. Jim's instructions indicate the stock rear cable will be too long and needs to be shortened. I measured it and shortened it, but when I reinstalled it, I found that I didn't need to shorten it at all. I'm now waiting on a replacement cable to be shipped.

Edited August 22 by Mark L

[aardvark]

Silver... Yup. I put extreme pressure on it and iI heard a ''pop''. I didn't push it all the way in.  I was just trying to free whatever corrosion was on/in it.  penetrating fluid must have worked because earlier it wouldn't budge.  Is it the right way? Nah!...All I'm trying to do is get it up and down my road to see if the new pads and disks resurfacing will stop the car right.   Then I'll know the rest of the system is working.   Finally, I've decided to do a Turner Conversion in the Fall..

Mark....Your going a direction I'm leaning to... cept maybe the rear disks. I'm taking notes..

[mfg]

6 hours ago, aardvark said:

Silver... Yup. I put extreme pressure on it and iI heard a ''pop''. I didn't push it all the way in.  I was just trying to free whatever corrosion was on/in it.  penetrating fluid must have worked because earlier it wouldn't budge.  Is it the right way? Nah!...All I'm trying to do is get it up and down my road to see if the new pads and disks resurfacing will stop the car right.   Then I'll know the rest of the system is working.   Finally, I've decided to do a Turner Conversion in the Fall..

Mark....You’re going a direction I'm leaning to... cept maybe the rear disks. I'm taking notes..

I wonder if Dan Booth at Nostalgic Motors has any of the caliper adapters Blake used on the ‘84-‘85 Avantis in stock?

Strve Blake had these made up  for the Studebaker spindles when he saw that the original Stude Dunlop disc brakes were no longer adequate to stop the then heavier Avanti II’s……

This is what I installed on my ‘83 everyday driver Avanti several years ago…. and they allow the use of mid ‘80’s Chevy Camaro ventilated rotors, pads, and calipers… all available at local auto parts stores for about $150.

Excellent stopping power!!

[aardvark]

Mfg.

Problem in going that route is I wouldn't know where to start combining, mixing and matching the parts needed.  You Sir, are one of my ''Go To Guru''s, when it comes to these cars, as well as the others offering info above.

Again.. Thanks to all of You.

I'm needing to rely on Folks like  "Robert Ziff at AvantiParts.biz..".for Him having the Turner Brake kit's and some phone time He has spent with me in the past. He sells the kit, whereas to go back stock seems senseless from both a $$  and a performance (braking power) stance. Simply what I'm finding is there needs to be 4 piston assemblies purchased at $150+ each.= $600....vs..... an entire kit (Turner) for $675ish, that comes complete with vented disks bigger calipers and pads and all mounting hardware.....It's a No Brainer from a mechanical and $$ point of view... 

Ok, my initial goal is to keep the car 100% original.. That is my goal. But who is going to see a Disk Brake and Caliper change once the tires are on? What will be noticed is when I switch to a Dual Master. So I'm slightly breaking from my stance.

I might add as mentioned before, we live in the heart of the Blue Ridge , Smokies and Apalactians. All of these roads are heavily sloped and exceptionally curvy,  so good brakes and tires are the most important features any vehicle needs around here. The Parkway is 5 miles from us and the road leading to it is tighter than the Tail of the Dragon... One speed limit sign says "15mph next 5 miles'' due to curves and slopes.......So it's a no brainer to Upgrade.

Edited August 23 by aardvark

[Mark L]

That's why I sprung for Jim Turner's deluxe kits, because they included everything. Other than having to identify the interchange numbers for the rotors so I could buy the correct drilled/slotted rotors, there was no work on my part assembling the parts.

Edited August 25 by Mark L

[aardvark]

Yup...

Wednesday I'll be ordering up a Dual Master from AvantiParts.Biz. It comes with lines and fittings included. I also might be ordering up a single to try out and see what went wrong the other day...

The pedal went to the floor.  I haven't bled out the back brakes so I need to go thru the full bleed process before I decide on that. I just want to test with stock parts, make things work and then start the conversion in the Fall months.

This whole process has been a fiasco !!

 

[aardvark]

Adding to the fiasco.

I bled everything out and the pedal goes to the floor. Master Cyl likely croaked. ... Can there be anything else???

[mfg]

1 hour ago, aardvark said:

Adding to the fiasco.

I bled everything out and the pedal goes to the floor. Master Cyl likely croaked. ... Can there be anything else???

Not unless there is an ‘open’ somewhere in the system…..Did you feel resistance in the pedal when you were bleeding system?

[aardvark]

Not much. MFG, 

And nothing leaking. Early on in the process we had some psi but it went away when the front bleed valves were opened, bled out and closed up.  So I thought the system needed re-bled...starting in the rear and moving forward (standard process).  Wednesday I'll order up another Master. The Booster already was rebuilt and from a source of  Robert Ziff's, but a booster wouldn't do that (am I wrong?).    The disks are not even grabbing when the brakes are on.

This has gone past the realm of fiasco into a P.I.T.A..

 

[Mark L]

I was finally able to finish my master cylinder installation and the last of the new brake tubes. I started installing the front disc brake kit. I'll post some tips on that later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time.

I think I'm on the downhill side of the installation. I probably won't have time to bleed the system and test it tonight. I took the day off from work tomorrow, so I should be able to road test everything then.

[Mark L]

Today I finished installing the Turner front disc brake kit on my Avanti.  The following is not necessarily described in the instructions that come with the kit.

The original Dunlop/Bendix calipers mount to the forward (bumper) side of the spindle.  The Turner kit installs on the rear (firewall) side of the spindle.

Yes, the new bearing spacers supplied with the kit need to be really hot before they will fully seat on the spindles.  The instructions say it should be red hot.  It is only a 0.002" interference, so I didn't think it needed to be red hot.  I was wrong.  This is what did not and what did work:

The instructions say to use a torch to heat the spacers so they expand, but I was concerned I would not be able to heat them evenly from ambient temperature.  I borrowed one of my wife's cast iron fry pans (WITH permission, of course).  I pre-heated the oven to 450F, and baked the spacers in the pan for about 20 minutes.  Using a very thick oven mitt, I then quickly carried the pan outside to the car, where I had everything ready to quickly install the spacer.  I used channel-lock pliers to pick the spacer out of the pan.  When I installed the first spacer, it got to about 1/8" from fully seating and got stuck.  Once it touched the spindle, the heat from the spacer immediately started to transfer to the cool spindle, causing the spacer to contract and the spindle to expand.  I tried to re-heat the spacer with a torch, but the spindle was also getting very hot (along with the kingpin).  I ended up sliding the box end of a 1 1/4" wrench over the spindle, seated the box end against the spacer, and used a hammer and long drift punch to drive the spacer on the last 1/8".  I nicked the spindle several times.  I had to file down the nicks so that the inside rotor bearing would slide on the spindle.

What worked for the other spacer:  I heated the oven to 500F and baked the spacer again for about 20 minutes.  When I took it outside, I left it in the pan, then used a propane torch to heat it in the pan even more.  The pan was so hot that a pot-holder I had placed under the pan to keep from burning the driveway was scorched brown.  the spacer turned blue all over, then the blue color faded.  I then used the channel-locks to put it on the spindle.  This time, it was loose on the spindle and slid all the way on.  I used the channel-locks to keep it pressed tight against the face of the spindle until it cooled and clamped onto the spindle shaft.

Personally, I feel having a pressed-fit spacer is overkill.  I almost botched the installation the first time, and once it's on the spindle, it's permanent.

The mounting brackets for the calipers are not marked left or right.  The bracket plates appear to be identical.  The wide end of the bracket is at the bottom.  The brackets mount to the engine side of the spindle, to the firewall side of the kingpin.

There is one spacer that installs on the shank of each bolt for the brackets.  They go between the bracket and the engine side of the spindle.  The shoulder end of each spacer fits inside the spot-face on the engine side of the spindle. 

When the original caliper and backing plate are removed, the outside and engine side faces of the spindle and the three holes on the firewall side of the spindle need to be cleaned, including the spot-faces on the engine side of the spindle that surround each hole.  The spot-face areas are not deep, but a mirror and light may be necessary to see that the entire spot-face area is clean.

The original backing plate is not re-installed, ande a new backing plate is not supplied with the kit.  I find this concerning, because the kingpin is about an inch away from the engine side face of the rotor once the rotor is installed.  When the suspension and kingpin bearings are lubricated, care will need to be taken to ensure no grease gets on the rotors, or else there will be a loss in braking effectiveness.  The original backing plates had a lot of excess grease sprayed on them over the years, so it will be really important to thoroughly remove any excess grease after lubricating the suspension.  Any grease that does get on the rotors will need to be removed with brake cleaner.

There are 6 total bolts that attach the brackets to the spindles, three for each side.  Each bolt supplied with the kit is 2 inches long.  When I got them installed, the tips of the bolts were flush with the ends of the nuts.  This means that when you torque the nuts, the very last thread to the tip of the bolt is under a load.  This may cause the threads on the bolts and/or nuts to strip.  In aviation, the rule of thumb is that one to three bolt threads must protrude beyond the end of the nut when the nut is fully torqued.  The problem is, longer automotive bolts usually only are available in half inch increments.  The next automotive bolt length available is 2.5", which is too long.  Aviation bolts, however, are available in 1/16 increments.  The next time I need to remove the rotors, which also requires the calipers to be removed, I am going to replace the 2" grade 8 bolts supplied in the kit with aviation grade bolts that are 2 1/16" or 2 1/8" long.  Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co. ( www.aircraftspruce.com ) sells aviation bolts.

When I installed the calipers, the caliper was binding slightly on the sides of the spacers.  This prevented one of the bolts that secures the caliper to the bracket from aligning with the threaded hole in the caliper.  I used a hammer to gently persuade the caliper that it was in its best interest to shift a little to get all the holes to align.

Overall, everything seems to fit well.  Tomorrow I will fill and bleed the system to see how it all works.

[aardvark]

Mark L

Thanks for the update and info on that. A Turner setup will be my next step. My understanding is the Turner setup comes with new spindles, disks, calipers, bearings and pads.. as well as all mounting hardware. Am I missing something in that the Spindles You are using were from the original car?... The reason I ask, is why did You have to seat these bearing spacers on the car if everything can be done on a Bench.

My fiasco continues. Rebuilt Booster, new single Master, Reworked calipers., all lines in good shape. I bled everything out 3 times and yes it grabs ok and seems to work fine off the ground, (on jackstands) but the pedal sinks to the floor over a few seconds.

I don't get it... Everything is near fresh and new.

End game, is I already bought the Dual Master (came with brake lines) but the Turner parts need to wait awhile...(a little cash poor right now).. Maybe in the Fall, I'll get to the conversion. ...Essentially I've given up on the Stock Setup. Soon it will be time to start fresh.

[Dwight FitzSimons]

The Turner disc brake conversion does NOT come with new spindles.  Replacing them would be a big job and nobody is manufacturing new ones.  You keep your existing spindles, but need to install a spacer on your spindle by heating the spacer that Turner provides and pushing it onto the spindle.  The spacer is a steel ring that you heat with a torch.  Heating it expands the spacer and allows it to go on the spindle.  When it cools it contracts onto the spindle and is locked down.  That spacer is needed as a "seat" for the new inner bearing to rest on.

The rest of the disc-brake conversion is straightforward bolt-on on the car.  When I did mine I asked a friend to help me because I was a bit worried about the task of heating the spacer and getting it on the spindle.  You have to heat it, then quickly push it onto the spindle before it cools down.  I used a Mapp gas torch, which is similar to an ordinary propane torch except that Mapp gas burns hotter.  I wanted to be sure that I got the spacer hot enough.  But, others can report on whether a propane torch is sufficiently hot.

One other thought:  Turner recommends the stainless-steel braided hoses (because they do not expand from the pressure of the fluid when braking).  The SS-braided hoses are an option that you may want to consider.

If you have never done a brake job yourself you might want to farm the job out to a shop.  But, if you have done your brakes yourself over the years you will find that installing the Turner discs is simple enough to do in less than a day without calling Jim Turner.  But, he is very willing to answer questions if needed.

--Dwight