More Problems. Calipers

[Fourward]

Doing the braking system. The calipers are frozen beyond repair. I was thinking of getting new ones, they are available, $600. Then I thought well just get the Turner brake system, $700. I think  I could install it, the heating those rings that go over the spindle and pounding or pressing in the bearings has me a little worried, but the rotors come with it along with everything else for only $100 more. The third option; if anyone has a set of calipers that actually work, and, at a reasonable cost, I would buy them and I can put them on in an hour. Anyone?Thanks.

[64studeavanti]

I have not tried these, but the price is right.

 

https://mossmotors.com/8777-2-cp-cobalt-brake-cylinder-axle-set?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzaqmz_-s_wIVgZqGCh2kYwuqEAQYFSABEgJSg_D_BwE#829=2405?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=shopping

 

[Rick Allen]

2 hours ago, Fourward said:

Doing the braking system. The calipers are frozen beyond repair. I was thinking of getting new ones, they are available, $600. Then I thought well just get the Turner brake system, $700. I think  I could install it, the heating those rings that go over the spindle and pounding or pressing in the bearings has me a little worried, but the rotors come with it along with everything else for only $100 more. The third option; if anyone has a set of calipers that actually work, and, at a reasonable cost, I would buy them and I can put them on in an hour. Anyone?Thanks.

I had the same problem on my '64 which sat for 50 years before i got it 2 months, put a grease fitting into one fluid port and plug the other one, I did that and surprisingly the grease push the piston out with little effort; try that and see what you got inside them before you go out and spend $500+,,,

[64studeavanti]

I use compressed air to push the pistons out.

[Fourward]

Well, that didn't work. Mine are frozen out not in.

[Rick Allen]

43 minutes ago, 64studeavanti said:

I use compressed air to push the pistons out.

yea, I tried compressed air, 175 lbs of it, wouldn't budge, air will normally work if calipers are in reasonably good shape, after 50 years of sitting, mine were not but the grease gun did it,,,

[Dwight FitzSimons]

21 hours ago, 64studeavanti said:

I have not tried these, but the price is right.

 

https://mossmotors.com/8777-2-cp-cobalt-brake-cylinder-axle-set?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzaqmz_-s_wIVgZqGCh2kYwuqEAQYFSABEgJSg_D_BwE#829=2405?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=shopping

 

Does anyone know whether these would result in more braking power on a Studebaker (i.e., a reduction in required line pressure required to stop)?  I have about lost faith in Studebaker's disc brakes due to the very high line pressure required to stop the car.  If one loses his booster, or the engine quits, then it is almost impossible to stop a disc-brake-equipped Studebaker, even on level ground.  This is the Achilles heel of the Bendix/Dunlop disc brakes, I cross a mountain regularly, and I'm too young to die!

I would argue that the Moss cylinders are a superior, modern design, and, as Moss states, more reliable and long lived.  At least they would be the most cost effective way to rebuild one's Bendix/Dunlop disc brakes.  Moss's website has them on sale for $350 for the complete set for the front of the car, or $270 for the cylinders & pads. 

One could even make them look sort of like the originals by grinding the name off the Moss cylinders and gluing the discs that someone has reproduced (like those on earlier '63 Avantis).

It would appear that the pins on the cylinders would have to be removed for installation on a Studebaker.  That would be easy to do.

--Dwight

Edited June 6, 2023 by Dwight FitzSimons
add pix

[Zedman]

Hi Fourward-

I have recently replaced all four of my caliper Cylinders with stainless steel ones for XKE Jaguar. These were the same as our Avanti's at 2 1/8" diameter. I looked at buying original cast Iron replacements, but here in Australia importing these from the USA was uneconomical given the comparative price for stainless Jag parts- seals & pistons included. Sleeving was not worth the expense.

My humble take on this is -

• don't even bother to disassemble the old Cyls- they will be eroded and useless, so throw them as far away as you can).
• keep your calipers, clean 'em up and paint
• replace Cyls & Pistons with original Cast Iron units from SI to keep your costs and time to minimum OR
• Fish around for Stainless Jaguar parts at a good price and use those.

Good luck.

[Fourward]

There seems to be a pin that will prevent mounting on the picture of the Jaguar pistons? Is there a hard line connecting one piston to the other? Will it interfer with the wheel?

[64studeavanti]

The picture shows the crossover tubes.

Since the original Jaguar caliper pistons do not have the pins in question, I am assuming that they are part of the improved design and should not be removed.

The original parts had a mechanism to pull back the pads slightly. Cannot tell if these have similar, or if they are even necessary as "modern" calipers do not have this mechanism and rely on runout to provide the same function.

Edited June 6, 2023 by 64studeavanti

[Rick Allen]

6 hours ago, Zedman said:

Hi Fourward-

I have recently replaced all four of my caliper Cylinders with stainless steel ones for XKE Jaguar. These were the same as our Avanti's at 2 1/8" diameter. I looked at buying original cast Iron replacements, but here in Australia importing these from the USA was uneconomical given the comparative price for stainless Jag parts- seals & pistons included. Sleeving was not worth the expense.

My humble take on this is -

• don't even bother to disassemble the old Cyls- they will be eroded and useless, so throw them as far away as you can).
• keep your calipers, clean 'em up and paint
• replace Cyls & Pistons with original Cast Iron units from SI to keep your costs and time to minimum OR
• Fish around for Stainless Jaguar parts at a good price and use those.

Good luck.

Did you remove the (guide) pins on the new Jag calipers to install on your original Avanti brackets?  Seems to me there is no hole in the original brackets for the pins to fit into or am I wrong?,,,

[Rick Allen]

15 hours ago, Dwight FitzSimons said:

Does anyone know whether these would result in more braking power on a Studebaker (i.e., a reduction in required line pressure required to stop)?  I have about lost faith in Studebaker's disc brakes due to the very high line pressure required to stop the car.  If one loses his booster, or the engine quits, then it is almost impossible to stop a disc-brake-equipped Studebaker, even on level ground.  This is the Achilles heel of the Bendix/Dunlop disc brakes, and I'm too young to die!

I would argue that the Moss cylinders are a superior, modern design, and, as Moss states, more reliable and long lived.  At least they would be the most cost effective way to rebuild one's Bendix/Dunlop disc brakes.  Moss's website has them on sale for $270 + shipping for the complete set for the front of the car. 

One could even make them look sort of like the originals by grinding the name off the Moss cylinders and gluing the discs that someone has reproduced (like those on earlier '63 Avantis).

It would appear that the pins on the cylinders would have to be removed for installation on a Studebaker.  That would be easy to do.

--Dwight

Seems like a low-cost alternative; what you have pictured is a master kit which sells for 359.00 on their website, so I'm wondering since this is sold as Jag parts, is the hardware metric or American, as used by Studebaker in '62/'63 and if the brake hoses are the ones pictured then they don't seem to be a correct replacement for Avanti,  I found it impossible to get anyone on the phone at Moss to ask these questions,,, 

[Fourward]

I waited out Moss motors and somebody finally answered. I asked if the hardware was metric or standard, he put me on hold for 10 minutes and couldn't answer. I mentioned that they probably sell the hose that attaches, he looked at it and could only say the threads were fine. I asked the Jaguar Forum about the threads, used to have an 89 XJS, I think they are 24 UNF. In any case, they make an adapter that goes from the 10 metric to our standard fitting. Do the hoses fit? Who knows. Yeah, those pins have me worried.

[64studeavanti]

The original Dunlop caliper pistons (and the ones licensed such as Bendix, Sumitomo, etc) were SAE. It would make no sense if these were metric. 

FWIW, before I discovered these, I was able to purchase Sumitomo from Parts Geek. They are SAE and fit perfectly.

Unfortunately, Parts Geek and others that sell the Sumitomo are out of stock.

[Rick Allen]

20 minutes ago, 64studeavanti said:

The original Dunlop caliper pistons (and the ones licensed such as Bendix, Sumitomo, etc) were SAE. It would make no sense if these were metric. 

FWIW, before I discovered these, I was able to purchase Sumitomo from Parts Geek. They are SAE and fit perfectly.

Unfortunately, Parts Geek and others that sell the Sumitomo are out of stock.

When I raised the question about metric or SAE, I was referring to the bolts that mount the caliper brackets, not anything related to the brake lines or rubber hoses; the hoses pictured (if they are what you get in the master kit) have male threaded ends on both ends, the original Avanti hoses have female threaded ends as I'm sure we all know.  My point was no use paying for things that won't work or can't use, seems the basic kit for $270 would be best for me,,,

[Dwight FitzSimons]

One thought:  If Moss would sell one Cobalt cylinder (& pads) alone then one could test fit it on the Studebaker caliper to see if it fits and determine what the threads are.  If the cylinder and pads fit then we are good to go (or stop).

Note that the English measurement system was used in the early 1960s in England, so I assume that these cylinders are English system too.  The SAE system uses the English measurement system.

--Dwight

[Fourward]

Moss told me that as long as there was no brake fluid in the parts, or anything to prevent them from being sold again, that they would be happy to take them back.

[64studeavanti]

Would be good to know if we have another source.

[Rick Allen]

48 minutes ago, Fourward said:

Moss told me that as long as there was no brake fluid in the parts, or anything to prevent them from being sold again, that they would be happy to take them back.

I'm close to buying them but I'd 1st like to know if there is some unreasonable "restocking" charge like 20% or so if I decided to return them?,,,

[Rick Allen]

44 minutes ago, Rick Allen said:

I'm close to buying them but I'd 1st like to know if there is some unreasonable "restocking" charge like 20% or so if I decided to return them?,,,

As a follow up, I called Moss and they answered within 1 minute, I pressed #1 for "quick sales/order" and I guess you get right in as they are expecting you to order, which I did not, but asked about return policy instead.

I was told returns of un-used parts is 6 months for a refund, and/or another 6 months beyond that for store credit, sound incredible but that's what I was told; also, no restocking fee either!,,,

[Zedman]

I have fitted the British-made Cyls onto my Studebaker- Bendix Calipers and the bolt holes align perfectly. Mine do not have extra Pins on them as those pictured earlier and are basically identical to the original Bendix's. I believe the retractor pin is inside 'em based on supplier info, and no, I never disassembled them to look. Reading on the subject further, the retraction pins were somewhat an overdesign back in the day but they still are included in new parts because they do work. The problem with the Pins is that people pry the Pistons out rather than blowing, and end up bending the Pins,  resulting in dragging brakes. That's why I couldn't be dammned looking in side 'em 😊. In any case, cobber, brand new Cast Iron assemblies will do nice and cheap, but if you do want to do stainless steel- check the Jag suppliers and keep an eye on cost. But stick to 2 1/8" dia. As an afterthought, you may want to consider the condition of all the brakelines and the Caliper crossover tubes.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Zedman

[Zedman]

13 hours ago, Rick Allen said:

Did you remove the (guide) pins on the new Jag calipers to install on your original Avanti brackets?  Seems to me there is no hole in the original brackets for the pins to fit into or am I wrong?,,,

My new Cyls did not have any extra alignment pins in them.... just four holes for 1/4"class 5 screws. Fitted perfectly.

[Zedman]

13 hours ago, Rick Allen said:

Did you remove the (guide) pins on the new Jag calipers to install on your original Avanti brackets?  Seems to me there is no hole in the original brackets for the pins to fit into or am I wrong?,,,

BTW please check my earlier post- pictures and further explanation are there.   There were no extra alignment pins on the Cyls I bought from a Jag supplier- just four 1/4" bolt holes. The rusty steel strips on the bottom of the caliper can be gently tapped-out, cleaned up and painted.

[Fourward]

Well, to end the thing then, Zedman, that was solid advice, I can't get the one caliper apart, the bolts are so rusted, I would have to pay my mechanic to disassemble one of them, so by the time I got done paying him, and getting the 4 x $110 pistons from SI, then brake shoes, I'd be bumping up against the cost of "NEW" calipers from Bob Ziff. $595. That bumps me into Turner Brake territory which gets me the rotors too, I gotta think my rotors are shot on this car, everything else was. So, I just ordered the Turner Brakes from Bob. ( I'm not that handy, the Jaguar parts look inviting but I KNOW I'm going to have to modify something.)

[Rick Allen]

2 hours ago, Fourward said:

Well, to end the thing then, Zedman, that was solid advice, I can't get the one caliper apart, the bolts are so rusted, I would have to pay my mechanic to disassemble one of them, so by the time I got done paying him, and getting the 4 x $110 pistons from SI, then brake shoes, I'd be bumping up against the cost of "NEW" calipers from Bob Ziff. $595. That bumps me into Turner Brake territory which gets me the rotors too, I gotta think my rotors are shot on this car, everything else was. So, I just ordered the Turner Brakes from Bob. ( I'm not that handy, the Jaguar parts look inviting but I KNOW I'm going to have to modify something.)

I ordered the $269.99 Colbalt calipers from Moss today, probably get them Monday if not sooner, I'll report back when I do and have a chance to evaluate them; I'm keeping my fingers crossed, stay tuned!