Avanti 63R-1025

[mfg]

Can anyone touch on the rather interesting history of '63 studebaker Avanti #..63R-1025?

[Guest dapy]

Since it is not listed in the 2014 AOAI Roster we might assume it is not owned by one of us. Beyond that a guess would a celebrity owner. Egbert? Mine (somewhat later) was owned by Ed McMahon.

Edited January 8, 2015 by dapy

[mfg]

Since it is not listed in the 2014 AOAI Roster we might assume it is not owned by one of us. Beyond that a guess would a celebrity owner. Egbert? Mine (somewhat later) was owned by Ed McMahon.

This Avanti WAS listed in earlier AOAI rosters....It is/was definitely owned by an AOAI member.

[Gunslinger]

Would that be the car awarded to Rodger Ward after he won the Indy 500?

[regnalbob]

It was Egbert's personal car and the first R-3 prototype.

[Guest dapy]

Why keep us guessing...who was the AOAI owner and where is the car now?

[mfg]

It was Egbert's personal car and the first R-3 prototype.

Not too sure if Egbert ever used it...possibly,....but it WAS the Paxton 'test mule' for the R3 engine, and was also the 'HOT ROD MAGAZINE' test car that threw the blower belts.....WHICH ANSWERS ONE OF THE OTHER POSTED TRIVIA QUESTIONS!!!!!!!

[Geoff]

Somebody looking for me (slash my dad)?

Egbert was an owner, but not for very long. My dad had phone and e-mail conversations with the Granatellis starting in late 2011. Below are screen grabs, one of his registration to theavanti.net and two e-mails my dad forwarded to me.

Registration

First e-mail

Next e-mail

The engine in 63r1025 is RS1021 and while one way to make 299 cu. in. Studebaker engines are square 3 5/8" bore and stroke, 1021 has the stock 3 9/16" bore and is stroked to 3 3/4".

1025 was the featured R3 in the June '63 issue of Hot Rod.

Lowered engine mount

http://oi60.tinypic.com/1438ex.jpg

The crank pulley clearanced a groove for itself
http://oi60.tinypic.com/15dkmzb.jpg

The steering column held a Dixco half sweep 8k RPM tachometer, what look to be scuff markings from a hose clamp are still visible.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/1jujoh.jpg

Photos taken summer of 2012 when I was visiting my dad and that brings me to the reason the car is down, I had an unfortunate accident on a back road and 1025 is in need of some front end work.

-Geoff Crall

[plwindish]

Great history for R1025!! The stories the car could tell! Please get that baby fixed and back on the road. It would be a good car to see at a National meet.

[Geoff]

Thank you. It is my focus now to get it back up before my dad gets to the point where he can't enjoy it. I have a feeling we're going to need some help from brand X (Comp Cams, Crane, Lunati, etc.) if we ever want to spin RS1021 to 8k RPM again. When I was driving it in the middle 1990s it would start experiencing valve float above 5500 RPM. In one of the phone conversations, Andy told my dad he wouldn't take the engine as high as he did because when [Andy] was doing it, he had the support of Studebaker and Paxton. Everything in the engine is as Studebaker & Paxton built it and rebuilt it; the original parts are old and worn. On top of that, one of the cylinders swallowed a lock washer when my dad and Doug had the engine torn down in the early '90s, so there's a good scoring on one of the cylinder walls.

1025 has had a rough life.

[mfg]

Wow!....A simple trivia question......one of dozens......can bring out this kind of new, interesting information. Kudos to the AOAI....Kudos also to 'AVANTI TRIVIA'!!!

[PackardV8]

First time I've seen it stated the R3 299" was created by stroking to 3-3/4". Everything I'd read heretofore said they were a .060" overbore.

jack vines

[Geoff]

There are a few ways to build a Studebaker engine to 299 cubic inches and they're just different.

+0.060" overbore: 3.6225" by 3.625" stroke = 298.885 cubic inches

Stock 289 bore: 3.5625" by 3.75" stroke = 299.034 cubic inches

+1/16" overbore: 3.625" by 3.625" stroke = 299.298 cubic inches

I won't argue that most 299 engines are reached via increases in bore but Granatelli's crew punched out RS1021 by increasing the stroke. So far it's the only one known to have reached those cubes in that manner. My uncle and dad are also very impressed with the work done on RS1021's heads, and they say they've not come across other factory cars with the same amount of work as done on RS1021's heads. The engine in 63R-1025 is a prototype and one of a kind.

Edited January 10, 2015 by GeoffC312

[mfg]

Unbelievable!.....Even the 'old timers' are learning something from these posts!

[PackardV8]

Unbelievable!.....Even the 'old timers' are learning something from these posts!

Just to confirm, has the bore and stroke actually been measured?

He said it was a short stroke 299", however as much as we can tell it is pretty much a stock 289" block. It has a 289" bore so if it is a 299", it's been stroked.

jack vines

[Geoff]

It's not posted on here, it was during a phone call with Andy Granatelli that he told my dad RS1021 was stroked. I know the "short stroke 299" segment is inline with the A.G. conversation though that's not the proper location for it. I believe Vince told my dad it was a short stroke 299 and Andy made the correction. Andy also corrected my dad with this bit, my dad had talked to Vince in the later portion of 2003, then again in 2011 and Vince shared memories of the car and said it was his car. My dad brought that up and Andy said, "That wasn't Vince's car … That was my car."

My dad and uncle (Ron and Doug Crall) had the engine torn down in the early 1990s (late '91, early '92-ish) as they were getting ready to drive from the SF Bay Area to attend the 1992 AOAI meet in Seattle. They did have the heads off and measured the bore at that time.

Edited January 10, 2015 by GeoffC312

[gwood7]

Do you have the production order for this car? If delivered to Granatellis it would likely state that (hand written) on the order, and/or an appropriation number such as 9867.

[Geoff]

We don't have the production order for 1025 and I'm sure it would be interesting to see what information is contained. However, 1025 wasn't delivered to the Granatellis, it was property of Studebaker (likely Egbert) and used by Studebaker / Paxton as a prototype. The Granatellis bought 1025 used from Studebaker in 1965.

[mfg]

Slightly off topic....but I've always contended that although there were definitely only nine 'production' R3 Avantis built by Studebaker, 63R-1025, having an R3 engine installed in it while under Studebaker ownership, should be considered a FACTORY Studebaker R3 vehicle......And there are also a few other Studebaker passenger cars that were built with R3's, albeit installed by Paxton, that I feel should be considered legitimate Studebaker Factory R3 vehicles..

To put it another way,.....'If there was an R3 or R4 engine under the hood when Studebaker sold it off into private hands, in my eyes it's a factory R3 or R4 Studebaker vehicle' (IMHO)

Edited January 11, 2015 by mfg

[PackardV8]

Slightly off topic....but I've always contended that although there were definitely only nine 'production' R3 Avantis built by Studebaker, 63R-1025, having an R3 engine installed in it while under Studebaker ownership, should be considered a FACTORY Studebaker R3 vehicle......And there are also a few other Studebaker passenger cars that were built with R3's, albeit installed by Paxton, that I feel should be considered legitimate Studebaker Factory R3 vehicles..

To put it another way,.....'If there was an R3 or R4 engine under the hood when Studebaker sold it off into private hands, in my eyes it's a factory R3 or R4 Studebaker vehicle' (IMHO)

To get it all back in one place, is this in fact a prototype engine, not numbered as an R3, not having R3 heads and not 100% sure via measurement of the bore and stroke as to displacement?

jack vines

Edited January 11, 2015 by PackardV8

[mfg]

Slightly off topic....but I've always contended that although there were definitely only nine 'production' R3 Avantis built by Studebaker, 63R-1025, having an R3 engine installed in it while under Studebaker ownership, should be considered a FACTORY Studebaker R3 vehicle......And there are also a few other Studebaker passenger cars that were built with R3's, albeit installed by Paxton, that I feel should be considered legitimate Studebaker Factory R3 vehicles..

To put it another way,.....'If there was an R3 or R4 engine under the hood when Studebaker sold it off into private hands, in my eyes it's a factory R3 or R4 Studebaker vehicle' (IMHO)

To get it all back in one place, is this in fact a prototype engine, not numbered as an R3, not having R3 heads and not 100% sure via measurement of the bore and stroke as to displacement?

jack vines

Well, if it isn't, Studebaker sure put one over on the editors of 'Hot Rod Magazine'!!!!!!!

[PackardV8]

Well, if it isn't, Studebaker sure put one over on the editors of 'Hot Rod Magazine'!!!!!!!

The manufacturers lying and the magazines swearing to it? That happened all the time. The '64 Pontiac GTOs furnished to magazines for road tests had 421" engines installed. None of the production GTOs were anywhere near as quick in the quarter as those tested by Car and Driver. Jim Wangers, the Pontiac PR guy responsible for getting good press, in his book Glory Days, admitted all the road test cars were total ringers, massaged by Royal Pontiac dealership racing department.

But even more more interesting to Avanti history, IIRC, the 172 MPH Bonneville car also had a prototype 299" engine. So the fastest top speed Avanti and the quickest accelerating Avanti were both hand-built prototype engines, neither having an R3 serial number nor R3 heads and neither being 304.5". For true or false?

jack vines

Edited January 11, 2015 by PackardV8

[Nels]

I hate to take away from 1025 but I don't think it is the road test car. I think that car was 1017 unless there was more than one. 1017 is marked on the PO deliver to Paxton, Andy G and Egbert is also written on the PO. It is turquoise/turquoise automatic although originally built as a 4 spd. It has all the signs of R3 such as fresh air induction, correct but crude air cleaner, was equipped with a B # engine. I know the road test "Avantis a Pair" used a turquoise R 3 Avanti but didn't realize the Hot Rod road test car was also turquoise, I always thought it was red with a black interior. I could be wrong about that. Does anyone know for sure about any of this info discussed so far?

[Geoff]

I understand the R3 debate: is 1025 a factory R3 or is it not? It started life as an R2 (finished July 5, '62) and was built up to prototype the R3. I'm okay with it remaining a prototype and keeping the nine factory R3s in their own group.

…

But even more more interesting to Avanti history, IIRC, the 172 MPH Bonneville car also had a prototype 299" engine. So the fastest top speed Avanti and the quickest accelerating Avanti were both hand-built prototype engines, neither having an R3 serial number nor R3 heads and neither being 304.5". For true or false?

jack vines

Didn't USAC rules dictate the reason for 299 cubic inches? I thought I heard somewhere that 300 cubic inches started the next higher class. Competition rules frequently change things, as in the former American Le Mans Series when Corvette Racing had to reduce displacement on their race car from 7L (the race car foundation was the C6 Z06) to 5.5L to be class legal. The ALMS required a 5.5L engine for competition but Chevrolet still only offered 7L C6 Z06 Corvettes to the public.

I don't know why Studebaker elected to make the factory R3 a 304 cubic inch engine. My two guesses, it probably sounded better for sales that the R2 was a supercharged 289 and the R3 was a supercharged 304, or maybe they felt the additional cubic inches would make a more street-able engine? I could be way off.

I hate to take away from 1025 but I don't think it is the road test car. I think that car was 1017 unless there was more than one. … I know the road test "Avantis a Pair" used a turquoise R 3 Avanti but didn't realize the Hot Rod road test car was also turquoise, I always thought it was red with a black interior. I could be wrong about that. Does anyone know for sure about any of this info discussed so far?

There were more than one, as the June 1963 Hot Rod issue talks about three (a 4-speed R2, the prototype R3, and an automatic R2), and the July 1962 Motor Trend issue printed two test Avantis on the cover.

I can say that when my dad was talking to Andy, my dad mentioned evidence of a tire fire in 1025's wheel well and Andy was able to verify it was the car he was thinking of. Unfortunately we lost Andy late in 2013 or I would send an e-mail to mrindy500@yahoo.com for written verification and for Andy to include memoirs he had with the car.

I apologize this conversation is taking place in the trivia section, it isn't every day one peruses the forums and sees a thread titled with the VIN of the family car.

Edited January 11, 2015 by GeoffC312

[R2Andy]

Nels,it's 63R 1016 you are thinking of rather than 1017. 1016 was "sold" to the PR Dept. and shipped to Los Angeles "for Mr Egbert's use in California" per the Appropriations Order. It was transferred to Paxton and was converted as the R3/Powershift prototype from it's original R2/4speed configuration. It received R3 B27 complete with the correct Transignitor ignition system and the correct style cold air intake setup with a hand made aircleaner. The car was originally equipped with a Hill Holder which was removed as well as having the affected brake lines replaced.