Pitman Arm

[Lancer]

 

Does anyone have good knowledge about Pitman Arms with and without control valves?  I think I have a bad one -- how do you know if it is bad or good.  I have an annoying wander when driving,  I have checked all the steering rod ends for extra play and they are all very tight; however the Pitman Arm goes up and down about a 1/8 of an inch as you change direction of rotation at the steering wheel.  This is with the front wheels off the ground.  HELP Wanted!

[studegary]

Have you checked the center pivot?  It may be the bearings/bushings in there.  If you are lucky, it is simply a loose cinch bolt.  This is common.  TIGHTEN it.  If it has been loose for awhile, the shaft gets barrel shaped and needs to be replaced.  

[Lancer]

I assume the center pivot is the big nut in the center between the wish bones -- and the answer is yes, I pulled the cotter pin and tried to tighten it but is was as tight as I could get it.  Everything else was tight as a drum except for the shaft that I think I id the Pitman shaft (matches the picture on the web). 

Thanks for our response.  

[studegary]

9 hours ago, Lancer said:

I assume the center pivot is the big nut in the center between the wish bones -- and the answer is yes, I pulled the cotter pin and tried to tighten it but is was as tight as I could get it.  Everything else was tight as a drum except for the shaft that I think I id the Pitman shaft (matches the picture on the web). 

Thanks for our response.  

The cinch bolt is NOT the big nut on the center pivot assembly.  It is where the "linkage" attaches to the center pivot.

[PackardV8]

Also, most Avanti have a bronze bushing in the pivot.  The trick setup is to get the older unit from cars which has two needle bearings and replace them with three new bearings.

jack vines

[studegary]

1 hour ago, PackardV8 said:

Also, most Avanti have a bronze bushing in the pivot.  The trick setup is to get the older unit from cars which has two needle bearings and replace them with three new bearings.

jack vines

I agree. That is why I said "bearings/bushings".  Who knows if it has been changed in the last 35 years and what may be installed now.

[Lancer]

Thank you guys for the help, it is appreciated.  I will take a closer second look at the pivot thing --- that sure would be a less expensive fix.

[mfg]

Inspect for looseness in the center bearing assy by grabbing onto the steering bellcrank where the inner tie rod ends attach and feeling for up and down play....very common on these cars.

Also, the power steering control valve will always feel' loose' on the pitman arm ball when the engine isn't running.....With the engine running, oil pressure from the power steering pump will firm things up!....good luck!

[Lancer]

Thanks mfg; I think I will wait a few days for things to warm up.  It is supposed to be 17 degrees tonight; but this is Arizona and it could be in the 60s later in he week.

Thanks again

[Jim78]

The "annoying wander" when driving could be due to incorrect caster and toe settings.  Has the front end alignment been checked?  Also, as we have all become accustomed to driving our newer vehicles with very tight rack and pinion steering, driving the Avanti, with it's multi-joint linkage design, can now feel very sloppy.  That said, I have found that the best method of troubleshooting loose steering is to put the front end up on ramps so you can slide under.  Have an assistant in the car rock the steering wheel back and forth through the "free play", but not actually turning the wheels .  As noted above, there should be motion at the control valve when the engine is not running, but that should be horizontal movement of the valve spool in the housing.   Otherwise, look for any lost motion at joints, and the center pivot (often the culprit).  From above, check the motion of the input to the steering box vs the output.  Feel the top of the pitman arm while rocking to see if it is moving laterally in addition to rotating.  I was having issues with the steering on my '78, and after a lot of head scratching, I discovered that the bolts attaching the steering box were slightly loose, and the box was actually moving on the frame.   Good luck.  Keep us posted on your findings.

[Lancer]

OK, here we go; I raised "Black Beauty" just enough to crawl under while the wife manned the steering wheel -- the front wheels were still making firm contact with the concrete.  As the steering wheel was moved back and forth within the free play area it appears that the big arm (with two other arms connected to it) connected directly to the pivot thing moved up and down (counter to the   normal rotation movement approx. 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch.  Could this maybe a part or even all of my wandering problem?  If so, this center pivot box, or what ever its called, looks like a Studebaker part -- I don't recall ever seeing anything like it before.  That said, where do I get the new bushing/bearing for it?  I talked with Dan Booth a couple of months ago and he thinks I need to scuttle the whole steering system as the car has just over  70K on the clock and Avantis need everything new every 30K.  He will sell me the NOS parts and provide free tech support to my mechanic which is probably not such a bad deal as he is a wealth of knowledge. However, do I really need everything new???  So where do I go from here? 

[Avanti83]

It's not only mileage but age and lack of lubrication. My 83 had about 90K on it when I bought it and when I took it in for an alignment the shop owner said it needed a complete rebuild. The parts are available from any number of Studebaker and Avanti parts dealers but let me suggest that you get a chassis manual and see what you are up against. 

It's possible to disassemble it and see what it needs but the only parts that have a chance of being in good shape are the kingpins if lubrication was done on a routine basis. I don't have a catalog with me but parts are probably in the $900 range for a complete rebuild and probably another $500 or more in labor.

If Dan has the parts, his prices are generally in the same range as most parts suppliers. He will make good on walking a mechanic through the process but let me suggest you look around your area for a shop that does car and truck suspensions. King pin steering is not uncommon on trucks and some older cars so look for a shop that's been in business for a while.

They should be able to handle the rebuild on their own. Just be sure to ask if they have a history with these type of rebuilds and you hand them the manual.

As far as price goes, my grand daughter need a front control arm on an 06 Pontiac G6, The dealer quoted $400 for a replacement. I did it for her for much less but the front suspension and steering is kinda important to using the vehicle safely so it needs to be in good shape no matter the vehicle or age.

When you find someone that can work on it, have them give you an idea of how much rebuilding it needs but I'd be surprised if it didn't need a lot of parts replaced. 

[studegary]

It still sounds like it may be something as simple as a cinch bolt that needs TIGHTENING.  If it has been used loose for awhile the center pivot is probably worn barrel shaped and it will not stay tight.  Tighten the cinch bolt VERY tight and check for looseness before taking anything apart or changing any parts.  

Edited February 24, 2018 by studegary

[PackardV8]

Quote

I talked with Dan Booth a couple of months ago . . . and Avantis need everything new every 30K.

I have the greatest respect for Dan Booth and his knowledge of Avanti, but that statement is totally bullshit.   I'd want clarification of what, how and why.

There is nothing in the Studebaker front end which would wear out in two years of daily driving.   (Of course, the Studebaker front suspension requires greasing every 1,000 miles, which few did when it was new and still fewer are willing to do today.) 

If the Avanti front suspension gets scheduled lubrication, the hard parts last a looooong time.  The first part to perish are the upper inner A-arm rubber bushings.  These days that happens more from years than miles.

jack vines, who's been working on Stude front ends as long as most anyone.

Edited February 24, 2018 by PackardV8

[Lancer]

PackardV8, I may have misspoken (in fact I am sure I did) with regard to complete rebuild of the Avanti steering system at 30K.  Rationally thinking about it, that sounds really stupid on my part.  I think what Dan said was some parts needed replacing at 30K and the whole system needs to be replaced at 60K.  That still seems strange for a car costing what the Avanti did new.  You are correct, Dan deserves our respect.  I for one have talked several times with him asking dumb questions for which he returned great answers all unpaid time on his part.  I know his work load is great and he really did not have the extra time to address my questions – he is just willing to impart his knowledge.

That said a I have a couple of questions:

            Avanti83, where can I purchase a Chassis Manual?

           Studegary, where is the “cinch bolt” and what does it look like?

Thanks again guys.  

[studegary]

The cinch bolt is a bolt through the arm that connects the steering to the vertical center pivot.   This may not be a good enough description for you.  Perhaps someone can post a picture.    

[Avanti83]

Avanti shop manuals are available through most of the Studebaker and Avanti parts dealers. Studebaker International will have them for sure. A point of interest. The shop manual covers the 63/64 Avanti as there is not one for the later cars. That's fine for the car, chassis and running gear but not the engine and possibly the trans. Any Chevy manual for the year of the car will cover the engine and trans. Those are generally available at the public library or cheap from several sources.

[mfg]

Lancer...All good info above!....To me, it definitely sounds like a loose pinch bolt on the steering bellcrank arm (as Gary suggested) or (and probably more likely), the steering center bearing (which the bellcrank arm sits on), needs rebuilding.

One trick that may rid your steering of some of the center bearing looseness would be to ADD a shim or two under the center bearing castle nut (which, as installed, faces the floor).....Adding a shim or two will take up some of the wear induced' play'...and costs next to nothing.....Careful though, too many shims will increase steering effort!

[gold63]

The center bell crank assembly which you said moved up/down 1/8 -3/16" should move sideways, not up and down. My 85 did the exact same thing. Dan Booth advised me on the repair as I purchased the parts through him. It corrected 90% of the wander. I need to replace the power steering tie rod ball /end and that should get me back to "no wander". I have the highest respect and praise for Dan Booth . He goes above and beyond in my opinion.

[Lancer]

Thank all of you for this forum and in particular "mfg" for your suggestion to use shims to fix the wandering problem. We order three different sizes at $1.50 each and like magic the problem was solved -- don't know what combination the mechanic used.  I know some will disagree and some will agree, but after fixing the wandering problem we bit the bullet and installed a pair of the "quick steering" arms and the second magic trick happened -- Black Beauty now drives like a real American car.  My mechanic also services another Avanti here in town so he has first hand knowledge of the difference, and he was totally amazed at the improvement the arms made.  I am told that Avanti installed them as s standard build item later on and I can see why.