mfg Posted January 8, 2020 Report Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) The first Studebaker Avanti to feature the "Pirates Buckle" Avanti 'S' emblems at the top center of the interior door panels was/is R- - - - . 1) 3299.....2) 3422......3) 4130.....or.....4) 4848 Edited January 8, 2020 by mfg
mfg Posted January 9, 2020 Author Report Posted January 9, 2020 22 hours ago, r1lark said: Was it the 'prototype' R4130? No, sorry it wasn't R4130........ CORRECT ANSWER......R3422!
regnalbob Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/8/2020 at 6:12 PM, r1lark said: Was it the 'prototype' R4130? 23 hours ago, mfg said: No, sorry it wasn't R4130........ CORRECT ANSWER......R3422! Paul is correct.
mfg Posted January 10, 2020 Author Report Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) On 1/10/2020 at 3:46 PM, Regnalbob said: Paul is correct. Nope, you're wrong Regnalbob ................ As I previously posted, Paul unfortunately is incorrect on this Avanti trivia question! The FIRST Studebaker Avanti to feature the "Pirates Buckle" emblems at the top of the interior door panels was R3422. Why is this true?.....Because R3422 was purchased by a man named RAYMOND LOEWY!....and Mr. Loewy had the "Buckles", among other unique items, installed on R3422. Later on, whether Studebaker designers utilized Loewy's idea as part of their 1964 Avanti revisions, or thought of it themselves, we do not know! Anyhow, the correct answer to this question is.....R3422.............Not R4130. Edited January 11, 2020 by mfg spelling
regnalbob Posted January 12, 2020 Report Posted January 12, 2020 According to the Turning Wheels article from October, 1987 the Pirate's Buckle was first introduced on the new all black 813 BKV option. R-4130 was the first Avanti to have this option with the Buckles installed between April 18 and May 1, 1963. The first production cars with the 813 BKV were R-4236 and R-4237 and completed on May 1, 1963. Unless you have documentation to show that Raymond Loewy had them installed on R-3422 before April 18 , 1963 your answer is incorrect.
mfg Posted January 13, 2020 Author Report Posted January 13, 2020 22 hours ago, Regnalbob said: According to the Turning Wheels article from October, 1987 the Pirate's Buckle was first introduced on the new all black 813 BKV option. R-4130 was the first Avanti to have this option with the Buckles installed between April 18 and May 1, 1963. The first production cars with the 813 BKV were R-4236 and R-4237 and completed on May 1, 1963. Unless you have documentation to show that Raymond Loewy had them installed on R-3422 before April 18 , 1963 your answer is incorrect. No offense Regnalbob, but I believe you're having some difficulty understanding this trivia question. I did not ask when STUDEBAKER first used this Avanti interior feature......My question asked when this Avanti interior feature was FIRST USED! R3422, (the RAYMOND LOEWY Avanti) was assembled LONG BEFORE any of the Studebaker Avantis which you have listed. In fact, R3422 was built in February of 1963, several months before R4130, R4236, or R4237! Mr. Lowey added several other custom touches to R3422, which I would be happy to list if you desire. Further supporting my correct answer, I refer you, (and anyone else that may be interested) to articles concerning R3422 in the 12/'89 CAR COLLECTOR magazine, and also the article in the summer '93 issue of the AOAI QUARTERLY magazine. I'll state just one more time....The CORRECT ANSWER to this Avanti Trivia question is Studebaker Avanti R3422!..........Ed
regnalbob Posted January 13, 2020 Report Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) The buckles could have been added anytime during Loewy's ownership. That's why I asked for documentation to show they were installed before Studebaker put them in production and not after. For those that don't have the 1993 issue. Edited January 14, 2020 by Regnalbob Added 2nd page
mfg Posted January 14, 2020 Author Report Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Regnalbob said: The buckles could have been added anytime during Loewy's ownership. That's why I asked for documentation to show they were installed before Studebaker put them in production and not after. For those that don't have the 1993 issue. You are implying Mr. Lowey imitated Studebaker stylists when he had the interior 'Pirates Buckles' installed on his Avanti.......Highly unlikely!! Frankly, I believe he'd be the last person to copy ANYBODY! (and I think that most fans of Raymond Loewy would agree with me) So, unless you can document Studebaker's coming up with this idea first, R3422 will stand as the correct answer to this trivia question......Also, I politely suggest you re-read the sixth paragraph of Dennis Adler's article...............Be well!........Ed Edited January 14, 2020 by mfg Added text
regnalbob Posted January 14, 2020 Report Posted January 14, 2020 20 hours ago, Regnalbob said: The buckles could have been added anytime during Loewy's ownership. That's why I asked for documentation to show they were installed before Studebaker put them in production and not after. For those that don't have the 1993 issue. 17 hours ago, mfg said: You are implying Mr. Lowey imitated Studebaker stylists when he had the interior 'Pirates Buckles' installed on his Avanti.......Highly unlikely!! Frankly, I believe he'd be the last person to copy ANYBODY! (and I think that most fans of Raymond Loewy would agree with me) So, unless you can document Studebaker's coming up with this idea first, R3422 will stand as the correct answer to this trivia question......Also, I politely suggest you re-read the sixth paragraph of Dennis Adler's article...............Be well!........Ed I politely suggest you re-read my reply. I am not disagreeing with you. You provided the documentation I asked for showing the buckles were installed before Studebaker put them in production. I posted that information for members who do not have that issue.
mfg Posted January 14, 2020 Author Report Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Regnalbob said: I politely suggest you re-read my reply. I am not disagreeing with you. You provided the documentation I asked for showing the buckles were installed before Studebaker put them in production. I posted that information for members who do not have that issue. Got it!.....I did take your first sentence the wrong way. Thank you for the explanation. By the way, I noticed that your '63 Avanti (63R2809) took first place at the AOAI National Meet back in '72....That's great, and it's also great that you still have the car!
studegary Posted January 15, 2020 Report Posted January 15, 2020 On 1/13/2020 at 10:42 PM, mfg said: You are implying Mr. Lowey imitated Studebaker stylists when he had the interior 'Pirates Buckles' installed on his Avanti.......Highly unlikely!! Frankly, I believe he'd be the last person to copy ANYBODY! (and I think that most fans of Raymond Loewy would agree with me) So, unless you can document Studebaker's coming up with this idea first, R3422 will stand as the correct answer to this trivia question......Also, I politely suggest you re-read the sixth paragraph of Dennis Adler's article...............Be well!........Ed It is hard to say that Loewy did not copy anybody, when the article states: "...the unmistakable chromed 'V' that Loewy had adapted from the trunk lid of the '57 Cadillac!"
mfg Posted January 15, 2020 Author Report Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, studegary said: It is hard to say that Loewy did not copy anybody, when the article states: "...the unmistakable chromed 'V' that Loewy had adapted from the trunk lid of the '57 Cadillac!" Nope, you're wrong about that Gary!............Try to understand, Mr. Loewy acquired a Cadillac trim piece, available to anyone at the time, and cleverly adapted it to the front nose panel of his Studebaker Avanti............This gave the front of R3422 a distinctive, 'very different' look. If Mr. Loewy desired to COPY what Cadillac did, he would have installed the 'V' on his Avanti's deck lid.......and That's That! Edited January 15, 2020 by mfg
mfg Posted January 19, 2020 Author Report Posted January 19, 2020 Come to think of it, using the exterior 'Pirates Buckles' on the inside of an Avanti almost HAD to be a Loewy idea that Studebaker liked and decided to copy. No doubt Loewy liked the 'look' of those 'buckles', and decided to use them to fill what he considered to be a 'void' found on the upper interior trim panel. I believe that Studebaker stylists would not have thought of re-using an exterior trim piece on the interior of their cars if they didn't see what Loewy did and liked it. Can anyone think of any other automobile exterior trim piece that was carried over to the interior? (Not just with Studebaker, but ANY domestic auto manufacturer)
studegary Posted January 19, 2020 Report Posted January 19, 2020 Not the actual piece, but the piece in question is not the actual piece - I will say 1960s Chrysler products that used the hood ornament design as a steering wheel center. There are probably others, but not that come to mind and I will not research it (as usual).
mfg Posted January 19, 2020 Author Report Posted January 19, 2020 12 minutes ago, studegary said: Not the actual piece, but the piece in question is not the actual piece - Your assumption isn't true Gary!....the "piece in question" definitely IS the actual piece. Your Chrysler steering wheel center design example does not 'hold up'!
regnalbob Posted January 20, 2020 Report Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/14/2020 at 11:37 PM, studegary said: It is hard to say that Loewy did not copy anybody, when the article states: "...the unmistakable chromed 'V' that Loewy had adapted from the trunk lid of the '57 Cadillac!" On 1/15/2020 at 5:46 PM, mfg said: Nope, you're wrong about that Gary!............Try to understand, Mr. Loewy acquired a Cadillac trim piece, available to anyone at the time, and cleverly adapted it to the front nose panel of his Studebaker Avanti............This gave the front of R3422 a distinctive, 'very different' look. If Mr. Loewy desired to COPY what Cadillac did, he would have installed the 'V' on his Avanti's deck lid.......and That's That! Did Raymond Loewy cleverly adapt or copy from Cadillac?
mfg Posted January 21, 2020 Author Report Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Regnalbob said: Did Raymond Loewy cleverly adapt or copy from Cadillac? I say cleverly adapt......as the rear edge of the Cadillac (?) 'V' no doubt needed to be re-worked to properly align with his Studebaker Avanti's nose panel contour. This gave R3422 a unique frontal 'look'....... Like NO OTHER Studebaker Avanti! If Mr. Loewy simply wanted to copy what General Motors did, he would have also installed a 'V' on the rear of R3422....and no doubt thrown in the Cadillac 'crests' for good measure! I believe you'll find it quite difficult convincing Avanti fans that Raymond Loewy was a copy-cat! Edited January 21, 2020 by mfg
studegary Posted January 21, 2020 Report Posted January 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, mfg said: I say cleverly adapt......as the rear edge of the Cadillac (?) 'V' no doubt needed to be re-worked to properly align with his Studebaker Avanti's nose panel contour. This gave R3422 a unique frontal 'look'....... Like NO OTHER Studebaker Avanti! If Mr. Loewy simply wanted to copy what General Motors did, he would have also installed a 'V' on the rear of R3422....and no doubt thrown in the Cadillac 'crests' for good measure! I believe you'll find it quite difficult convincing Avanti fans that Raymond Loewy was a copy-cat! Do you really believe that or are you just arguing? All designers "borrowed" from each other. The Avanti combined design features of some of the most popular designs of the time, including the E-Type Jaguar and the Continental (both 1961 models released to the public in 1960).
mfg Posted January 21, 2020 Author Report Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, studegary said: Do you really believe that or are you just arguing? All designers "borrowed" from each other. The Avanti combined design features of some of the most popular designs of the time, including the E-Type Jaguar and the Continental (both 1961 models released to the public in 1960). That's pretty lame Gary!....If you do not recognize the design of the Studebaker Avanti to be 'cutting edge' for its time, unlike anything else on the road, with a 'look' that still appears modern today....then please don't expect me (or anyone else) to explain it to you! Have to cut this short....Have to get to work! PS....Still find it hard to believe you didn't realize the 'Pirates Buckles' used on the interior door trim panels of 'late' Stude Avantis were not exactly the same piece as the 'Buckles' used on the exterior roof side panels!! Edited January 21, 2020 by mfg Added PS!
studegary Posted January 21, 2020 Report Posted January 21, 2020 4 hours ago, mfg said: That's pretty lame Gary!....If you do not recognize the design of the Studebaker Avanti to be 'cutting edge' for its time, unlike anything else on the road, with a 'look' that still appears modern today....then please don't expect me (or anyone else) to explain it to you! Have to cut this short....Have to get to work! PS....Still find it hard to believe you didn't realize the 'Pirates Buckles' used on the interior door trim panels of 'late' Stude Avantis were not exactly the same piece as the 'Buckles' used on the exterior roof side panels!! You may call it "lame", but my information came from one of the original Avanti design team.
mfg Posted January 21, 2020 Author Report Posted January 21, 2020 7 hours ago, studegary said: You may call it "lame", but my information came from one of the original Avanti design team. No offense meant Gary, however, you shouldn't be picking on Raymond!!
studegary Posted January 22, 2020 Report Posted January 22, 2020 3 hours ago, mfg said: No offense meant Gary, however, you shouldn't be picking on Raymond!! I am not picking on Raymond. As you should know, he had little to do with the final design of the Avanti.
mfg Posted January 22, 2020 Author Report Posted January 22, 2020 21 hours ago, studegary said: I am not picking on Raymond. As you should know, he had little to do with the final design of the Avanti. I assure you Gary, the Studebaker Avanti design, which most of us think quite highly of, would be very much different without the influence of RAYMOND LOEWY!.....'Nuff said!
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