Sears-Studebaker Avanti!

[mfg]

The Studebaker Avanti used in the Sears-Studebaker Cross Country Tire Test was most likely a.......?......

1) Normal Production1963......2) Prototype (EX).......3) 1963 Transition Model......or.....4) True 1964 (Square Light)

[studegary]

36 minutes ago, mfg said:

The Studebaker Avanti used in the Sears-Studebaker Cross Country Tire Test was most likely a.......?......

1) Normal Production1963......2) Prototype (EX).......3) 1963 Transition Model......or.....4) True 1964 (Square Light)

I will say 4).  The production Allstate cars were in the R51XX range.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mfg]

1 hour ago, studegary said:

I will say 4).  The production Allstate cars were in the R51XX range.  

Fairly solid evidence indicates that your answer (#4) is incorrect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[r1lark]

Hmmm.....a while back Ed you asked this question:  The Studebaker Avanti used in the Murphy-Carroll-Neiland cross-country Sears tire test was a late 1963 model...........true?

My response was as follows:  Oh boy, this gets into the whole "what is the point at which the '63s stopped and the '64s began" discussion, doesn't it?   The Allstate cross-country car was a square headlight car (see video below), plus it was built after the summer 'break' (early July to early August) in production. To me, that is two reasons to call it an early '64 Avanti, so I'll say false.  Cool YouTube video of the start of the Allstate cross country run:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYz3Q4fyu3U

Your response was:  And false is CORRECT!...............( It looks to me the Avanti in question is clearly a 1964 model). Thanks for posting the excellent video!

So, being built after the summer break, and being a square headlight car...............why isn't Gary's answer correct?

Perhaps you are looking for "#3 1963 Transition Model "since the Sears/Allstate car (R4938) was built during the time that both 'round' and 'square' headlight Avantis were coming off the line? Or that R4928 was built during the period that both 1963 option numbers/paint code cars and 1964 option numbers/paint code cars were coming off the line together? I don't have a copy of R4938's Production Order to determine whether it has the '63 or the  '64 option numbers/paint codes........that would be the determining factor in my mind.

However, knowing you Ed (not being disparaging here, but a compliment ) you have probably uncovered some information that points to this car being something other than a 1964 model, so I'm waiting to see that. Until then, I tend to agree with Gary that it's a 1964 model. Wish I had a copy of R4938's Production Order tho..........

[studegary]

I didn't have the S/N of this Avanti in my mind.  Now that Paul has provided it (R4938), I still think that my answer is correct.  It was built during the period of a mix of round and square headlights, but they are still 1964 models.  The first 1964 was R4835.  R4836 and R4837 were 1963s because they were built earlier than R4835.  In any case, this was more than 100 cars before the Allstate car.  

[mfg]

WOW!...I never expected such 'in depth' responses (which I think is great!!)

This question re-entered my mind this morning when I was looking at some period Studebaker Avanti photos advertised on e-bay.

One of the photos shows Andy Granatelli and some USAC officials at Bonneville standing beside the Sears-Studebaker Cross Country Avanti.

The photo of this Avanti, (front view), clearly shows a 'round light' (1963) car, a supercharged model, and the supercharged emblem on the right front fender is clearly the 1964 'Supercharged Avanti' type, as opposed to the 1963 'supercharged' type fender emblem.

This has led me to believe that the correct answer to this trivia question may be #3, 1963 transition model......Replies welcome!

[regnalbob]

There may have been two different cars used.

One for Los Angeles to New York and this one for New York to San Diego.

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Regnalbob

[studegary]

4 hours ago, mfg said:

WOW!...I never expected such 'in depth' responses (which I think is great!!)

This question re-entered my mind this morning when I was looking at some period Studebaker Avanti photos advertised on e-bay.

One of the photos shows Andy Granatelli and some USAC officials at Bonneville standing beside the Sears-Studebaker Cross Country Avanti.

The photo of this Avanti, (front view), clearly shows a 'round light' (1963) car, a supercharged model, and the supercharged emblem on the right front fender is clearly the 1964 'Supercharged Avanti' type, as opposed to the 1963 'supercharged' type fender emblem.

This has led me to believe that the correct answer to this trivia question may be #3, 1963 transition model......Replies welcome!

I believe that you are referring to the Allstate tire test Avanti that ran from NY to CA and was not driven by the two young ladies that drove on the record trip from CA to NY.  

[mfg]

11 minutes ago, studegary said:

I believe that you are referring to the Allstate tire test Avanti that ran from NY to CA and was not driven by the two young ladies that drove on the record trip from CA to NY.  

I'm fairly sure there was only ONE cross-country Sears-Studebaker record setting Avanti Gary.....The photo on e-bay (I believe) was taken at Bonneville after the record setting runs were over.

To not confuse this issue, I'm referring to the Murphy/Neiland/Carroll Avanti.

[studegary]

6 minutes ago, mfg said:

I'm fairly sure there was only ONE cross-country Sears-Studebaker record setting Avanti Gary.....The photo on e-bay (I believe) was taken at Bonneville after the record setting runs were over.

To not confuse this issue, I'm referring to the Murphy/Neiland/Carroll Avanti.

I think that the round headlight Avanti was a tire test from NY to CA.  The Murphy record run was CA to NY in a square headlight Avanti (refer to Paul's video).

[mfg]

2 minutes ago, studegary said:

I think that the round headlight Avanti was a tire test from NY to CA.  The Murphy record run was CA to NY in a square headlight Avanti (refer to Paul's video).

I don't think so Gary....The Stude Avanti in the e-bay photo clearly has 'Mexico to Canada and Return' displayed on its front fenders!

(Refer to e-bay auction # 163739775799)

[studegary]

2 hours ago, mfg said:

I don't think so Gary....The Stude Avanti in the e-bay photo clearly has 'Mexico to Canada and Return' displayed on its front fenders!

(Refer to e-bay auction # 163739775799)

Look at the door.  In larger letters (than the ones that you quote) it states; "NEW YORK to SAN DIEGO"

[mfg]

19 hours ago, studegary said:

Look at the door.  In larger letters (than the ones that you quote) it states; "NEW YORK to SAN DIEGO"

Gary, your post hypothesized  the 'round light' Avanti in the e-bay photo only traveled east-west....I pointed out that it also traveled north and south!!

I'm quite sure there was only ONE 'Sears- Studebaker' record setting Avanti.

If you have any evidence that there were two (or more!) please post it.

Otherwise, we may assume the Studebaker Avanti which was used in these record runs was most likely a '63 1/2 transition model. (Answer #3)

[regnalbob]

On 8/18/2019 at 6:47 PM, Regnalbob said:

 

After watching the video it looks like this is the same car converted to round lights, notice the damage above the right turn signal.

The Avanti name plate is in the square light location.

Both cars have outside mirrors in same locations: left door and right fender.

Sticker seen in rear window is STP shown in video.

Sticker on left quarter window can be seen in video.

Los Angeles to New York can be seen on right rear quarter panel.

Drivers names on door.

Other graphics were added in different colors after each trip.

 R-4938 was built in August, 1963 and would not be a transition model.

Gary and Paul would be correct about it being a 1964.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Regnalbob

[studegary]

2 hours ago, mfg said:

Gary, your post hypothesized  the 'round light' Avanti in the e-bay photo only traveled east-west....I pointed out that it also traveled north and south!!

I'm quite sure there was only ONE 'Sears- Studebaker' record setting Avanti.

If you have any evidence that there were two (or more!) please post it.

Otherwise, we may assume the Studebaker Avanti which was used in these record runs was most likely a '63 1/2 transition model. (Answer #3)

As determine earlier, the Allstate Avanti was built too late to be a  transition model.  One possible solution is that all of the runs were by one Avanti, sometimes with square headlights and sometimes with round headlights.  This may have been due to accident damage or other reasons that we will probably never know.

[mfg]

1 hour ago, studegary said:

As determine earlier, the Allstate Avanti was built too late to be a  transition model.  One possible solution is that all of the runs were by one Avanti, sometimes with square headlights and sometimes with round headlights.  This may have been due to accident damage or other reasons that we will probably never know.

Gary, I know you're trying your hardest to be correct here, however, your statement................." all the runs were made by one Avanti, sometimes with square headlights and sometimes with round headlights" ????......THAT'S RICH!!!!

If the Sears-Studebaker Avanti had front end body damage, does anyone out there really think that Studebaker Corporation would repair their latest 'square headlight' 1964 Avanti with a 1963 'round headlight' nose panel???????...  NO WAY FOLKS!!!

Correct answer to this trivia question, at least until more conclusive evidence is revealed, is still  #3!

[studegary]

How do you account for round headlights on the Avanti in the picture that you reference (E to W) and square headlights in the video that Paul presented (W to E)?  It is either two cars or one car that was changed.  I assume that you know that there were round headlight Avantis built after the end of the transition models.  

[mfg]

18 hours ago, studegary said:

How do you account for round headlights on the Avanti in the picture that you reference (E to W) and square headlights in the video that Paul presented (W to E)?  It is either two cars or one car that was changed.  I assume that you know that there were round headlight Avantis built after the end of the transition models.  

MYSTERY SOLVED!...... We enlarged the e-bay photo at work today........It became quite obvious that this photo was 'doctored' by someone with the intention of making a '64 'square light' Avanti into a '63 'round light' version. (The reason someone would want to do this completely escapes me!!)

Look closely at the round headlights...they seem to be out of proportion (larger) than normal....also check the irregular shape of the round headlight ring, especially the one on the right.... (passenger side).

As I mentioned to Paul (r1lark) several months ago, I believe that this Avanti actually is a 'true' 1964 square light model!.............By the way, notice that there's some damage on the leading edge of the right fender and possibly damage to the right bumper end.

As an aside, I still find it a bit humorous anyone "into Avantis" would think that there were TWO Sears-Studebaker Cross Country Avantis, or that the '64 'square headlight' fiberglass nose panel was  replaced, (by Studebaker Corp.), with a 1963 'round headlight' nose panel!

 

I want to make it clear that I was initially taken in by the altered e-bay Avanti photo and thought that I may be looking at a 19631/2 'transition model' Studebaker Avanti.....however, I now feel the correct answer to this trivia question is #4.....True '64 'square light'

Edited August 20, 2019 by mfg
Added last paragraph

[studegary]

Thank you!  You finally came around to my initial answer!  I tried to support the other possibilities when you told me that I was incorrect.  I saw the record breaking Avanti shortly after Joe Erdelac had it shipped to him (he didn't want to add miles to it).  Joe had it garaged by R5643 and other low mileage Avantis.      

[mfg]

19 hours ago, studegary said:

Thank you!  You finally came around to my initial answer!  I tried to support the other possibilities when you told me that I was incorrect.  I saw the record breaking Avanti shortly after Joe Erdelac had it shipped to him (he didn't want to add miles to it).  Joe had it garaged by R5643 and other low mileage Avantis.      

You're welcome Gary!...I'm always happy to help!