Hot start problem

[wopony12]

I have a 1987 Avanti with a 305 engine. New starter, battery,cables and heat blanket on starter. Been having problem starting when hot after

sets for an hour or so. Seemed to be fixed until yesterday. Was at least 90 degrees here. Car was running a little hotter than normal. After sat

for 11/2 hrs. acted like battery dead. Tried 2 hrs. later and started right up. Have heard about using Ford solenoid and that circuit breaker may be bad. Some breaker reset theirselves I know. Anyone have same problem or know solution. Thanks

[Charlie Kile]

I had the same exact problem a few years back. Had a Devil of a time finding it.

Believe it or not the nut that connects the starter hot lead to the solenoid was the wrong one !

Someone had put a 3/8 16 nut on it. When it should have had a 10 x 1 mm.

It would tighten down and feel really tight, when in reality it was barely making connection and the threads were jamming !

When it got hot the stud, being copper, would expand more than the steel nut opening the connection.

As it cooled they would make contact.

G M used both sizes depending on who made the solenoid !

Charlie RQB3921

[wopony12]

Thanks Charlie. A new solenoid was put on. I would thinkl it came with a nut. Going in shop Monday and I will have them check that.

I'm going to try the ford solenoid and replace fusable link. It did it with old starter and solenoid.

hanks

[Charlie Kile]

I also had both the starter and solenoid changed ! But the old was reused !

Charlie RQB3921

[Avanti83]

Still sounds like a starter heat soak issue. After you check all the connections, and you should as Charlie explained above, listen to hear if the solenoid is actuating but the starter is not turning when you have the problem. It would not be the first time a newly rebuilt starter was a POS right out of the box. I'd dig a bit deeper before I'd change to the Ford solenoid.

As an aside, I've been using ones like these on all my SBC's over the years. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-BBC-CHEVY-3-HP-High-Torque-Mini-Starter-168-tooth-SDR0031-L-/361647909871?hash=item5433e52bef:g:~Q8AAOSwRgJXiT3X&vxp=mtr

Be sure to get the correct one for the # of teeth on your flywheel. There are two options.

Bob

Edited August 5, 2016 by Avanti83

[IndyJimW]

My 1987 Avanti had a similar problem. Is the engine cranking slow or starter just clicking. Or is nothing working, gauges and warning lights off etc.

Jim Wood

[wopony12]

No click or anything. All the windows, lights and radio work. Putting new fusable links in today. I read on a post from 2011 that someone had problem and

this was the cause. Makes sense gets hot and then resets self when cools down. New battery, starter solenoid and blanket on starter for heat. Any help

appreciated.

Thanks

Gary Baird

[silverstude]

You can use a Ford style starter relay and mount it somewhere away from the excessive exhaust heat. Bolt the starter cable up to it and then to the starter solenoid. Move the Ignition switch wires to the Ford unit and you'll never have a hard start again..

[Avanti83]

I can't recall the exact number of SBC's I've owned and/or worked on in my 73 years but one thing I do recall, I've replaced a lot more bad starters than I have bad solenoids.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Avanti83

[IndyJimW]

Sounds like a bad ignition switch or wiring. When it happens use a test light to see if you get power to the solenoid terminal when the key is turned to start. You could also cross the battery terminal to the solenoid to see if the starter will engage. You could also check the plug connector at the base of the column for heat damage, a common problem. Fusible links would not be a problem, all they are is a smaller diameter of wire that melts when to much amperage is supplied.

Jim Wood

[wopony12]

Drove the Avanti to a show today. An hour drive each way. I checked starting car every 1/2 hr and started each time. I had the Ford Solenoid put on with bigger battery cables. Looks like this solved the problem. Thanks everyone.

[jvespey]

Funny this thread should show up when it did - for the first time ever I had the same problem Saturday night with my '85. Drove it for twenty minutes, parked it for two hours or so and it was fine. Drove it for 20 minutes, parked it for an hour and it was fine. Drove for another 20 minutes, parked for 5 minutes and wouldn't crank but everything else was fine. Let it sit for 30 minutes or so and it fired right up. Could be a long drive to KC if I am able to go and have to follow this routine... :-)

Doesn't seem to be a consensus here as to what really solves it - fusible links, solenoid, starter, Ford starter, relay, battery cables...

[warren55]

I had the exact same problem, and after a lot of research I changed out my starter for a newer style permanent magnet OEM starter. It's about 1/3 the size and weighs about 8lbs and has never failed to start my car since the change out about 2 years ago. An easy upgrade!

[wopony12]

As soon as put the Ford solenoid on noticed that it turned over faster even when cold. I had problem until I put a heavy duty Ford solenoid on. At the same time since I needed a longer battery cable, a bigger one was put on. I never replaced any fuseable links. Week before I replaced the battery because it had a bad cell and at that time I had a blanket installed over the starter for the heat. There's no doubt in my mind that the Ford solenoid did the job. When it wouldn't start

I had nothing It was like I didn't even have a battery in the car but lights and everything else worked. There was another post on here about this problem and using a Ford solenoid about 3-4 yrs. ago. Google Chevrolet hot start problem and see what comes up. Also, there were posts on Monte Carlo forum with same problem and same solution. This is a Chevy hot start problem and when google it, the ford solenoid will be the answer to fix the problem. Hope I helped.

[wopony12]

I drove the car today and had several stops and starts. Worked fine.

[IndyJimW]

I would like to see the diagram for installing the Ford relay and what it accomplishes. You still need to engage the solenoid on the GM starter, so I don't understand the need for additional circuits. I've been a mechanic for 40 years and starter problems always come down to voltage and amps, either not enough or too much needed. The GM system has worked great for over 60 years, my guess is that you solved your problem by moving a wire or adding heavier cables.

Jim Wood

[silverstude]

The starter cable from the (Ford) relay, gets bolted to the top GM solenoid lug. The bottom lug is a thick copper strap to the starter windings. When the GM solenoid gets energized from the Ford relay, the action of the solenoid plunger/lever moving the starter gear into the flywheel also closes the starter circuit.

Edited August 24, 2016 by silverstude

[wopony12]

I do not understand why it works. The ford Solenoid has a higher amp then GM. Please google Chevrolet hot start problem for diagram and more information on it. I did have bigger battery cable installed while doing this. I have had no problems since doing this and the weather has been hot. Mechanic doing this install didn't understand why it would work either. The solenoids from Auto Zone didn't work. Used a heavy duty one from electrical supply supplier here. All I can tell you is it's nice to have a car that will start each time. This problem I've had since had car and previous owner had it a couple times. After over 2 years it seems to be fixed so far. We installed a battery to Ford solenoid and then ran a cable to starter and jumped a wire from battery post on GM starter to Gm solenoid. other wires were connected to Ford solenoid. Hope this helps.

Gary

[IndyJimW]

I'm glad that this works for you, but I still think you have a problem that will bite you later.

I have seen this setup from the factory on Ford E-350 vans that use a GM type solenoid and on Semi trucks. These systems were designed for it. you could also accomplish the same thing with a Bosch relay.

This system wasn't designed for it and if I was to take an educated guess I would say you have a problem with the starter wire coming from the ignition switch. When hot you are not getting the necessary current to engage the starter solenoid. By adding the Ford relay the starter wire can engage the relay with the lower current and power the GM solenoid with battery current.

Either way you still HAVE to power the GM solenoid for the starter to operate.

The most likely problem is that the ignition switch connector at the base of the column has overheated, if you can unplug it you will see melted plastic and overheated terminals. I have seen them overheat to the point that the plastic connector melts together and can't be separated. If this is the case, eventually it will degrade and not power the Ford relay.

By the way, in my shop load testing the battery is the first test of a no start problem.

Jim Wood

[wopony12]

Interesting, I checked the connector and looks fine. I can see where the one end has been replaced I'd say because I see where the wires have been joined together. The connector looks older. I know the car was rewired at the factory. As Dan Booth can tell you they had wiring problems and a few caught fire.

Thanks for the tip.