Avanti 63R-1025

[mfg]

This is all EXTREMELY interesting stuff.......I'd like to see this info printed in 'AVANTI MAGAZINE' or even 'TURNING WHEELS'....where more folks will see it.

[ron@crall.com]

I just stumbled onto this forum following a link from my son.

63R1025 is parked in a hanger on my farm in Southern Maine. Hauled it here from the San Francisco area in 2001, purchased it in late 60's, probably 69. I took the Hot Rod magazine R3 road test issue with me. The motor looked identical. I found out later that it was the car used for the article. I purchased the car for $2750 and with it came the bill of sale from Vince Granatelli and California Registration for a 1965 2 door Studebaker. Vince purchased the car from Studebaker during final asset liquidation, prior it had California MFG plates. My brother Doug and I have been in contact with Vince off and on since the 70's, and I received a call from Andy not too long before his passing.

63R1025 (RS1021) has a lot of history and was pretty unique. Vince was the first owner, but Andy considered it "his" Avanti until work with Studebaker finished and all the toys were liquidated.

I'll read through this post and add comments and reply to questions in the next few days, however; an early comment after reading the first couple of posts regarding horespower ratings is that after Andy told me he ran the engine to 8,000rpm and after I got back up off the floor, I asked him how many horsepower the car made at that RPM. He said thy never put it on a Dyno, that the Board of Directors was not to supportive of the performance initiatives so they did not advertise horsepower, and that all of the figures "leaked" out were taken at low (5,000) RPM readings to keep the Board from getting too uneasy, however; to beat a Hemi he figured that it would have had to peak at about 500.

[ron@crall.com]

I finally had time to read the entire thread.

[ron@crall.com]

Somewhere I have the original bill of sale from Vince. The car was sold by him as an R3 to a Southern California aerospace engineer who had it for a short time. He and may other aerospace engineers lost his job an he moved from the LA area to the SF East Bay and he put the car up for sale. I purchased it using the Hot Rod magazine as my only referance as to it being an R3.

A couple of years later my brother Doug got hold of Vince and Vince confirmed that it was the first prototype, a test mule, and the Hot Rod Magazine R3 test car.

Regading a question of celebrity ownership, I was told by both Vince and Andy the car was originally used by Sherwood Egbert and the AM/FM radio was installed at his request, but he had it only for a short time as Andy and his brother Joe went to South Bend and picked up 1025 and another. The other was dropped off with family and 1025 driven to LA. Andy spoke quite a bit about how the family member painted the other a terrible shade of metalic green.

MFG seems to have a lot of the same information that I have about 1025 being a test mule. It had it's front motor mounts modified to get the engine to sit lower in the chassis to get hood clearance. The early hoods had a reinforcement that had to be cut to get the blower hose to the R3 air box. The car had air cleaner installed in front of the radiator with the hose routed throught the fender well to reach it. It had a custom built exhaust balance pipe installed between the left and right exhause ahead of the muffelers, a feature of the quiet tone exhause option offered later, it was cut/welded, not clamped. There was a damage repair to the left rear quarter panel due to damage when Vince blew a tire at speed, I uderstand the rear window simultaneosly blew. I used to know all the rear window attach designs. This being among the first 86 cars that had design #1 replaced immediately it should have had design #2, instead it was either #3 or #4.

I also understood the first 86 cars had terrible body fit. 1025 certainly did, you could grab the drivers door at the bottom when closed because the rocker panel was indented enough to do so, and there was a sag in the roof deep enough for water to pool. It took a lot of work to get the body closer to the quality of the later cars.

Re the engine; the heads show a tremendous amount of work, the combustion chamber is more domed and does not have the abrupt separator between intake and exhaust like stock heads, both intake and exhause chambers are very smooth with much more flowing walls. The valve retainers are very light and might be titanium. There were dual valve springs with a 3rd coiled in the reverse direction between them. Every retainer is slightly different, obvously individually created on a lathe. The heads have been off a couple of times, and one of those times I checked the bore and it was still a stock 289 bore.

Comments about the rear axle; wish it had flanged shafts like the prodfuction R3's, My brothers and I have owned at least 14 Studebakers, mostly Hawks and Avanti's. I have had several axles break at the keyway in Hawks, and although I have every axle magnafluxed any time one is removed, one broke in 1025. I have had it happen often enough that I learned a teltale creak and as soon as i heard it pulled over and called for a tow truck. He grumbled that the car was fine but I had it towed home. As he dropped it and I put a stand under the axle, I then grabbed the tire and the tire/wheel/break drum fell to the ground! The twin traction clutches and plates were installed so that there was more friction area, don't remember if it was x2 or x4, but it was impossible to even paralell park without the rear axle locking. As any amount of torque would lock it, lifting your foot in a corner could be very exciting, and is probably the reason that the cars last trip was through a farmers fence.

Regarding the production order; never seen it but would be interesting to see. My understanding is that the car was first used by Sherwood Egbert and that he had requested that it have the AM/FM radio. He had it a very short time and it and another Avanti were picked up by Andy and Joe Granatelli. One was dropped of to family in Chicago, and the other driven to LA. The car had California MFG plates until sold by Studebaker to Vince in 1965.

Regarding "factory R3". There are only the 9 documented factory R3's, and I don't know if any of them were ever raced by the factory. To my knowledge those 9 were pretty mucy identically engineered. I have seen a couple of them and as I recall they did not have the Paxton instruments installed under the radio. Mine has a Paxton superchager pressure and fuel pressure gage to monitor that the blower never has more pressure than the fuel pump. Were that to happen the engine would lean out and likely burn the valves. I have also seen a triple instrument cluster but don't recall what the 3rd instrument was for. There were a number of prototype R3's, a even more Paxton installed R3 transplants. Many if not most had significant differences from the ones installed at the factory. I never spoke to Joe, but perhaps the best definition of an R3 was the one given by both Andy and Vince when I asked; "If it came from Paxton and we called it an R3, it's and R3"

Hopefully Geoff and I make some progress this year getting it back together. Mechanically it's fine, just old like I have become, but that farmers barbed wire fence did not do the body any favors! I'd love to take it to one more event.

[mfg]

Great reading Ron, and best of luck with getting her back on the road!.....I get 'down' to Maine quite often in the summer. Is 63R-1025 with you in Maine?

[ron@crall.com]

I just purchased a 71 RB-Q1703. Will transfer a few parts to 63R-1025 to get it back on the road again.

Talked to brother Doug last night about the engine when it was torn down years ago. We never suspected that the stroke had been altered, all of the 299's were 60 over 289's, or R3-A versions, vs the later "B" serial numbers. By using a R2 with factory service parts and allowable modifications to the R2 heads and manifolds a "production" R3 could be entered into competition before enough "B" version 304.5 engines could be produced to become "production" As it is, there were never enough produced to b considered a "Production" car for most sanctioning bodies. Back to the tear-down. Doug noted that he had never seen a crank that had had so much attention to detail and polishing, and that the rods also looked different. No measurments were taken, we were just replacing some seals and cleaning for show.

The last discussion with Andy suggested that in order to get a little more torque to do better at drag racing they assumed that since 299" Avanti's were recognized as production engines that if they slipped in a stroked 299 instead of a bored 299 that they might get away with it. It worked and for awhile 63R-1025 held the 1/2 mile drag record at Riverside beating all including Hemi's. As the 1/2 mile drags were ended shortly thereafter it may still hold the record. I have tried to get a copy but the track is closed and requests for informaiton have not yet yeilded any information. Vince said that this was the fasted accellerating Avanti and was given to magazines for R3 road tests for that reason. Apparanly this was the only stroked engine. It was not a production part and if discoverd that this was a stroked 299 and ot a 60 over 289 it would not have been considered a "production" Avanti.

Since it was first sold by Studebaker to Vince in 1965 with the modified engine installed by Studebaker, I would assert that it is a very unique "Production" R3, as were the few others used at Bonneyville and later sold by Studebaker. That would create a slightly longer list of factory "R3's" including the few 60 over "A" engines and the one stroked engine. The "A" engines were recognized by sanctioning bodies as allowable production engine modifications, there were not enough "B" engines to allow them to meet most sanctioning body requirements for 'production' status. 63R-1025 is unique because it is a one-off that would be very hard to qualify as a production engine if torn down for inspection.

Per Vince Granetelli, "an R3 is anything that we say is an R3. We engineered it, built it, and very few were identical"

An interesting observation regarding the engine, the valve retainers are a very light alloy and each one is a unique part obviously made one at a time by hand on a lathe and retain 3 coils, the center coil wrapped the opposite of the inner and outer springs.

[Avanti83]

Ron

Thanks for the detailed posts on a very unique piece of history. I can't recall if you have posted on the Racing Studebaker website but those folks carry the torch for the performance history, some of which is on-going, of Studebaker and Avanti.

If you haven't, I'll bet they would love to make your acquaintance and see a cut and paste of your comments here.

Again, thanks very much. Bob

[ron@crall.com]

i received a huge packet of information from Nostalgic Motors over the weekend. Included was the factory manifest, 14 pages of factory inspection tickets, and the factory to dealer invoice. The top line of the factory to dealer invoice was originally for $500 which was crossed out and replaced with the normal vehicle price hand written. There were then multiple lines of other charges, a large credit, and a final price of $500 for the sale to Paxton Products.

[ron@crall.com]

1025 is out back in my hanger, and the 71 is in the barn

[ron@crall.com]

Slightly off topic....but I've always contended that although there were definitely only nine 'production' R3 Avantis built by Studebaker, 63R-1025, having an R3 engine installed in it while under Studebaker ownership, should be considered a FACTORY Studebaker R3 vehicle......And there are also a few other Studebaker passenger cars that were built with R3's, albeit installed by Paxton, that I feel should be considered legitimate Studebaker Factory R3 vehicles..

To put it another way,.....'If there was an R3 or R4 engine under the hood when Studebaker sold it off into private hands, in my eyes it's a factory R3 or R4 Studebaker vehicle' (IMHO)

To get it all back in one place, is this in fact a prototype engine, not numbered as an R3, not having R3 heads and not 100% sure via measurement of the bore and stroke as to displacement?

jack vines

Yesterday at the New England zone meet i showed a couple of people the factory to dealer invoice and zone car delivery report. One of them noted that although the car was released to Paxton Products "as is" on 7/19/62 that the invoice and delivery report are dated two years later on 7/27/64. The bottom line price to Paxton after a very large credit to account 462-56-09 was $500.00

They are for Serial # R 1025 and Engine # RS 1021

Per both Andy and Vince Granetelli, RS 1021 was the development R3, it was the only engine stroked to 299", all others bored to 299" and installing the .060 over pistons that were factory service parts. Increasing the stroke provided a little more torque and provided a faster accelerating engine. It was provided for road test reports (Hot Rod Magazine 1st R3 Road Test was one of them and the R3 pictures in the article were of 63R-1025) and Andy also drag raced it at Riverside 1/2 mile events where it was capable of beating 426 Hemi MoPars.

The heads have a triple valve spring with the center one having a reverse wind, the valve retainers are very light and each one visually different, obviously hand made on a lathe, the combustion chambers are re-shaped and the intake and exhaust ports have had extensive work having a very smooth surface and flowing curves. The engine mounts on the frame have been re-worked allowing the engine to sit so low that the crank pully will rub the steering if the rubber mounts are not replaced occasionally. In any case, the engine must be lifted to replace the belts. It has R3 exhaust manifolds, a competetion Paxton blower (Verified by Paxton when sent to them for a rebuild following an impeller explosion) and the 276° cam.

This is the engine that Studebaker and its Paxton division provided the media and raced stating that it was an "R3" It was a Studebaker owned car until July 1964 when it was sold by them with the engine that they had declared to be an "R3" I do not know how this vehicle can be considered anything other than a "Factory R3"

Per both Andy and Vince Granetelli "We built the R3's so any engine that we call and R3 is an R3"

Edited June 28, 2015 by ron@crall.com

[mfg]

As I posted this morning on the SDC forum, I agree with the idea that 63R-1025 is a Studebaker 'factory' R3 Avanti....as the R3 engine was in the car when the company sold the vehicle....This is also true of the 'HRM' Spl., the '64 Daytona R3 test car.

[ron@crall.com]

Do you have the production order for this car? If delivered to Granatellis it would likely state that (hand written) on the order, and/or an appropriation number such as 9867.

I do have the production order. Car was picked up at the factory "as is" along with a second one by Andy and Joe Granatelli. One was dropped off in Chicago to their dad and 1025 driven to Paxton in Santa Monica. The car was not transferred, it was still factory property and ran California MFG license plates. I also have the document where the car was sold by Studebaker to Paxton two years later. The invoice lists the base price, all optional equipment, then a big credit and a net invoice amount to Paxton of $500 on the dealer invoice. Paxton later sold the car to Vince Granatelli who became the first registered owner. It was registered as a 65 Studebaker sedan.

Edited May 8, 2016 by ron@crall.com

[jeffgrohs]

Ron, Geoff, it was great talking with you in Warwick and seeing the car in person. I really appreciate being able to see such an important piece of Avanti history ( I should have joined Avanti ltd. a few years earlier!) and being able to sit in the driver's seat!

Jeff

[mfg]

Ron, Geoff,....I can't believe it!..I was at Warwick on Thursday, and somehow missed you guys & your Avanti!!

Was your Avanti parked on the grassy hill with the other show cars?....I didn't stay all that long, I've been ill all week. (summer cold)

Anyway, I'm happy that you got 63R-1025 there!...Post pix if you can!

[ron@crall.com]

Ron, Geoff,....I can't believe it!..I was at Warwick on Thursday, and somehow missed you guys & your Avanti!!

Was your Avanti parked on the grassy hill with the other show cars?....I didn't stay all that long, I've been ill all week. (summer cold)

Anyway, I'm happy that you got 63R-1025 there!...Post pix if you can!

So sorry that we missed you.

After 18 years in the barn and hanger, we finally pulled the Avanti out on public roads Wednesday at 7:00pm. It ran well but although it ran pretty straight, it was in obvious need of an alignment and the speedometer and tachometer were both inoperative. After two miles or less the decision was made to trailer it to Warwick.

We got there about 2:00 and parked the car with the others on display on the grassy hill. There was a red R3 Avanti in the row ahead and to the left, and a black 63 Super Lark parked left of us.

We had a 2x3 laminated poster made that documented some of the car's history, the Hot Rod Magazine road test, published drag racing speeds and times, the build sheet with the "released as is" to Paxton notation as well as the factory to dealership invoiced dated July 1964 invoicing Paxton $500 for the car. The people that saw it were surprised to find out that this piece of Avanti history still existed.

After putting the car back on the trailer we retired to the bar and ended up sitting down next to Jeff Grohs, a Californian that joined my old regional club the year after I left the Bay Area for Maine. I got caught up on what had happened to the members that I had known since the 70's. Good times.

Friday morning we pulled the car off of the carrier again so some people that we ran into could take a closer look, fired it up and let Jeff and a friend circle the display area in it, and then loaded it up and headed back home.

Sorry we missed so much of the event, and the opportunity to see more of the local members and make a few new friends, but the car runs again and will be seen at some of the regional events.

[jeffgrohs]

a few pix for those who missed 1025 in Warwick

[mfg]

 

This Avanti, 63R 1025, is an excellent example of how value, both financial & historical, is increased because of it still having that original (and very special) engine under its hood!

Edited November 17, 2021 by mfg