Four Speed Studebaker Avantis!

[mfg]

I've often wondered why approx. 90% of Studebaker Avantis were equipped with the Powershift automatic transmission? I can understand why most all the later Avanti ll's were equipped with automatic transmissions...they were advertised and sold as luxury cars. But the original Studebaker Avanti was 'all about' performance in the factory advertising, not to mention the Bonneville records, yet nine out of ten of them were built with automatic transmissions. Even the supercharged models were predominantly automatics!.....Thoughts on this anyone?

[GlennW]

I remember plenty of magazine ads where the original car was flanked by "beautiful people" in classy situations, and I think it was generally accepted by the public the Avanti wasn't a sports car as much as a sporty luxury car like the Buick Riviera, and later the Olds Toronado and much later perhaps even the Monte Carlo or "bigger bird" bloated T-Birds. Buyers of the time proabably would've gone to the 'vette as a sports car first anyway and the automatic was coming into it's own as a reliable and easy to drive alternative to the std. transmission. If buyers saw it different I'm sure more of them would have ordered standards and the build ratio would not be what it is. Lots of same era 'vettes were built with AT also, just seemed to have been accepted as compatible with performance.

Edited September 30, 2014 by GlennW

[psdenno]

I'm guessing Studebaker Marketing folks didn't view the Avanti as primarily a performance car, in spite of the Granatelli brothers. The Marketing Department tends to be the tail that wags the dog in the auto industry.

Dennis

[Gunslinger]

I believe there more than 10% equipped with 4-speed transmissions, but that really isn't important. There's probably a number of reasons why the majority of Avantis were equipped with automatics. The car was priced in the near luxury class where few cars did not have automatic transmissions. So the pool of potential buyers was in the Buick Riviera/Ford Thunderbird/Pontiac Grand Prix class...and you likely won't find too many of those sold with manual transmissions. One can make the argument the Avanti also competed against Studebaker's own Grand Turismo Hawk as both could be considered personal luxury cars, though the Hawk couldn't be optioned as highly as the Avanti and other competitors.

You might also consider the Studebaker dealer network. Most probably had little idea how to promote and sell a car like the Avanti...it was foreign to their experiences and to traditional Studebaker customers. I would think that they would order mostly automatic equipped cars. It might also have been as simple as the profit motive...automatics may have been more profitable. It seems logical that most customers that wanted a 4-speed special ordered it that way.

It's well known that many advance orders for the Avanti were cancelled due to production delays. It's generally accepted that many of those who cancelled their orders purchased cars like the Corvette. If there's truth to that, that would have been the group of buyers who most would have wanted 4-speed transmissions.

[GlennW]

I'm guessing Studebaker Marketing folks didn't view the Avanti as primarily a performance car, in spite of the Granatelli brothers. The Marketing Department tends to be the tail that wags the dog in the auto industry.

Dennis

As talented as the Granitellis were, the Avantis were never a performance car IMHO, always more of a "personal luxury sport tourer". As 1962 drew to a close, what I think were 3 of the most beautiful cars ever built were new on the market; The Avanti, Corvette Stingray and Riviera. All cost about the same in starting trim and I think the Riviera was dead nose to nose competition with the Avanti. The first year Riviera had a base 401ci V8 engine with around 320hp. I had that same engine in a '63 LeSabre wagon and I have no doubt it could have stomped an R1 Avanti in the quarter mile. I just don't think the average daydreaming Avanti buyer really bought into an image of slamming through the gears at Watkins Glen compared to valet parking at the Wilshire.

[psdenno]

As talented as the Granitellis were, the Avantis were never a performance car IMHO, always more of a "personal luxury sport tourer".

If that was the case, it appears that Studebaker and the brothers Granitelli spent a lot of time, effort, and money on the salt flats just for grins. No telling why Studebaker printed up all those showroom banners listing the records that were broken if the intended Avanti buyer just wanted a country club cruiser. More likely, Studebaker wanted a performance car in the GT style that could meet a range of buyer expectations. Automatics vs. four speeds, Paxton Superchargers vs. air conditioning. Not a lot of options to choose from back then.

Dennis

R2470

R2 4-speed

[brad]

The power shift was the first transmission of it's kind, and was touted as a performance transmission. Car magazines gave it rave reviews.

It was the first automatic transmission touted as a high performance transmission, and driver selectable gears as well as automatic shiftng. It was very heavily advertised. That is why they outsold the 4 speed. It was advertised as the latest and greatest.

[GlennW]

If that was the case, it appears that Studebaker and the brothers Granitelli spent a lot of time, effort, and money on the salt flats just for grins. No telling why Studebaker printed up all those showroom banners listing the records that were broken if the intended Avanti buyer just wanted a country club cruiser. More likely, Studebaker wanted a performance car in the GT style that could meet a range of buyer expectations. Automatics vs. four speeds, Paxton Superchargers vs. air conditioning. Not a lot of options to choose from back then.

Dennis

R2470

R2 4-speed

Understood, and hope you don't take it personal because I love the Avanti, too. I think part of the Granitellis' mission included milking everything they could out of a basic 289 starting point and the Salt Flats were a great place to convince customers they weren't buying a poser. Stude didn't have a large displacement/HP engine to compete with the big 3 nor the time/money to get one ready, so just like others did later, they went for a blower. They did a darn good job, too. but sadly in the short and long run perhaps it was just for grins At least your R2 is waaaay cooler than Mopar's later turbocharged 6 cylinder LeBaron!

[psdenno]

Understood, and hope you don't take it personal because I love the Avanti, too./quote]

Of course I don't take it personal. After all, it's just a car and we have a differing point of view on its intangible values. Just trying to broaden your scope a bit to increase your appreciation of a very unique piece of automotive history. Clearly, we both enjoy the Avanti.

Dennis

[GlennW]

Just trying to be sure, even with emoticons its hard to always be sure how what one writes is coming across, and a lot of people confuse, "doesn't understand" with "doesn't agree". In a thread like this, I suppose the big thing is having a consensus on what the word, "performance" even means. Going fast in a straight line is a good measure for some, snaking through a set of twistys might be a requirement for others. You bring up a good point with, "Paxton Superchargers vs. air conditioning" since with some of Avantis competition (Riviera comes to mind) you didn't have to choose between HP or AC. I have never driven a '63 Riviera so I have no idea if it is better or worse on a road course. That said, I have no doubt with the same amount of effort the Granatellis could've exceeded any speeds the Avanti ran through traps or ¼miles and I don't know that the public really followed details like what class(es) the cars might have been in. Ad agencies will pitch anything, regardless of what the engineers might have wanted to say. I remember AMC selling the Pacer as the, "small car with the big car ride" when in reality it was more like, "the small car with the big car appetite for gas"

[psdenno]

No worries Glenn. I fully understand how forums work and the many ways the written word can be interpreted. Writing as one who was around when the Avanti was in production, enthusiasts did follow the details of what Studebaker was doing on the Salt Flats.

I remember being at the dealership "'63 model year" introduction in Superior, WI and seeing the Avanti in the showroom.

As for how Studebaker viewed the Avanti, I have the 1963 Press Kit, the Public Relations Department release states....

"Avanti brings to the American motorist numerous "firsts" in performance, safety, and design. Inspired by Sherwood Egbert, Studebaker Corporation President, Avanti has created a new class of sophisticated design and elegance."

""Admiittedly, this is not a car for everyone. The advanced styling and engineering is intended to please individuals desiring an automobile of personal prestige and distinction," says Sherwood Egbert"

"When in motion, the Avanti proclaims action; while standing still, it has an appearance of speed arrested in time."

The release goes on to mention the association with Benz as an additional "buzz" word. There's also mention that the Avanti would come standard with either a three or a four speed transmission. As we know, the automatic was an option. Hardig's SAE paper on the Avanti (Jan 14-18, 1963) goes into great detail if you get a chance to see a copy.

So, it appears Studebaker wanted to cover all bases with performance and style.

Dennis

Edited October 3, 2014 by psdenno

[mfg]

A few years back I was offered EVERY part needed to convert my '63 Avanti from automatic to standard (four speed) transmission. These parts were all 'good used', and the price was $900. I never did buy these parts to make the conversion, and in hindsight I'm kind of glad I didn't...The four speed would have been more 'fun', but a good Power-Shift Avanti is a pleasure to drive also!

[GlennW]

If 90% were ordered with AT, anybody know what % had AC? Just curious if that ties in somehow or is meaningless because '63 a LOT of cars were ordered without air conditioning. Even that 401-equipped '63 LeSabre wagon I mentioned didn't have it and it had the upgraded interior and rear-facing 3rd seat, hardly ordered as a sports car

[Gunslinger]

The exact numbers have been compiled and are available through the Studebaker National Museum. I have the information but am not near it at the moment. It will probably be a day before I can refer to it, but I will do so unless someone else does before I can.

[GlennW]

The exact numbers have been compiled and are available through the Studebaker National Museum. I have the information but am not near it at the moment. It will probably be a day before I can refer to it, but I will do so unless someone else does before I can.

Sweet, thanks. No rush of course, not as if anybody's car is going to run better or worse because of it. I'm not even sure if it will be useful, but this seems to be a thread that's garnered some interest and lively conversation.

[Gunslinger]

According to the Avanti Production data compendium available from the SNM, there were a total of 3354 Studebaker Avantis equipped with automatic transmissions and 1211 equipped with a 4-speed. Out of all Studebaker production of the Avanti, about 72% were automatics and 26% were 4-speed equipped (the small balance were base 3-speeds). So roughly a quarter of Avanti production were 4-speed cars.

As far as a/c equipped cars, a total of 1096 left South Bend with a/c...or about 23% of total Avanti production and 32% of all R1's came with a/c.

Actually...I would have thought the number of a/c equipped Avantis to have been higher..

[GlennW]

According to the Avanti Production data compendium available from the SNM, there were a total of 3354 Studebaker Avantis equipped with automatic transmissions and 1211 equipped with a 4-speed. Out of all Studebaker production of the Avanti, about 72% were automatics and 26% were 4-speed equipped (the small balance were base 3-speeds). So roughly a quarter of Avanti production were 4-speed cars.

As far as a/c equipped cars, a total of 1096 left South Bend with a/c...or about 23% of total Avanti production and 32% of all R1's came with a/c.

Actually...I would have thought the number of a/c equipped Avantis to have been higher..

Thanks for taking the time to get that info. I wish I knew what the industry average was for AC overall in the early 60's, as I haven't a clue how the Avanti might measure up to any baseline. The 32% for the R1 might actually be a high number for a non-Caddilac/Lincoln type car. Since you couldn't get AC on an R2 perhaps that is some kind of indication of how people chose what was most important? With such a small sample group and not even knowing how many Avantis went to areas where AC wasn't really needed vs southern climes, it may not mean anything provable.

[GlennW]

I have some stats on the 1963 Corvette to compare with, undoubtably a sports car in direct competition for sales with the Avanti and at a similar price point. There were about 21,000 '63 'vettes sold, with a choice of optional (4-speed) Manual or Automatic Transmission. The build info shows a whopping 85% were built with the optional 4-speed manual trans, another 4½% with the std 3-Speed manual and 12½% with the optional Automatic I have no idea if fact that roughly half the '63 Corrvette cars built were convertibles means squat or if the '63-'64 Avati number would have been different if 20,000 of them had been sold from a readly available pool of cars of most build combinations available. FWIW only 1¼% of all '63s had AC.

Edited October 8, 2014 by GlennW

[Gunslinger]

Corvettes through 1969 had the 3-speed manual as a base transmission...4-speeds were an extra cost option as with the Avanti as built by Studebaker. Corvettes also had the 2-speed Powerglide as the only automatic available through 1967 and only with the lesser horsepower engines.

Convertibles were more popular than coupes until the C3 generation with lift-off hatches were made standard. While the split window '63 was later considered very desirable it wasn't at the time...convertibles outsold it and it was deleted after one year. There were even kits made to eliminate it and replace it with the one-piece back glass for those who didn't like the obstructed rear view.

[GlennW]

Corvettes through 1969 had the 3-speed manual as a base transmission...4-speeds were an extra cost option as with the Avanti as built by Studebaker. Corvettes also had the 2-speed Powerglide as the only automatic available through 1967 and only with the lesser horsepower engines.

Convertibles were more popular than coupes until the C3 generation with lift-off hatches were made standard. While the split window '63 was later considered very desirable it wasn't at the time...convertibles outsold it and it was deleted after one year. There were even kits made to eliminate it and replace it with the one-piece back glass for those who didn't like the obstructed rear view.

Thanks GS, I've (hopefully) edited my mistakes in the previous quoted post. Could've sworn it was a 3-Speed AT, but looking back, that's the same 2-speed my Buick had. Maybe the 3-Speed Automatic was in the 1965 Studebaker-powered Canadian 'vettes.

Not the kind of data I'd want to depend on, but it seems the Corvette buyer had a different concept in mind than the average Avanti buyer, HP over an AT and far less interest in AC than the Avanti buyer.

[mfg]

According to the Avanti Production data compendium available from the SNM, there were a total of 3354 Studebaker Avantis equipped with automatic transmissions and 1211 equipped with a 4-speed. Out of all Studebaker production of the Avanti, about 72% were automatics and 26% were 4-speed equipped (the small balance were base 3-speeds). So roughly a quarter of Avanti production were 4-speed cars.

As far as a/c equipped cars, a total of 1096 left South Bend with a/c...or about 23% of total Avanti production and 32% of all R1's came with a/c.

Actually...I would have thought the number of a/c equipped Avantis to have been higher..

Good info!...The 10% 4-speed figure was incorrect!

[GlennW]

One thing both cars share is that for those buyers who DID want a manual transmission, most paid extra for a 4-speed over the base 3-speed. A no brainer to me, also.

[mfg]

One thing both cars share is that for those buyers who DID want a manual transmission, most paid extra for a 4-speed over the base 3-speed. A no brainer to me, also.

Yes, in hindsight it's a bit surprising that the T-86 three speed, with it's non-syncro first gear, was even offered by Studebaker for the Avanti!

[Gunslinger]

It's surprising considering the Avanti was presented as a performance car, but not surprising as a way to keep the base price down. I think it was a marketing gimmick as Studebaker likely knew or at least expected that few would be ordered with the 3-speed.

As a comparison, GM did the same thing with the Corvette... in 1963, only about 5% of Corvettes came with the base 3-speed. About 2% of Avantis came with the base 3-speed so it shows what customers wanted (or in this case...didn't want) in these cars.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Gunslinger

[GlennW]

Yes, in hindsight it's a bit surprising that the T-86 three speed, with it's non-syncro first gear, was even offered by Studebaker for the Avanti!

True, 'course in general, I don't understand why the "start in 2nd AT was the one offered either. The car certainly weighs enough that even in general driving it really benefits from a first gear standing start. My guess is it's pure gimmick-designed to make folks feel cool shifting their AT-equipped car 'cause "they're supposed to". If it weren't for the cost and general hassle I'd have tossed in a "normal" BW in my R1 long ago.

Edited October 8, 2014 by GlennW