RQB 2897

[Tony S]

Could the wheels be rubbing against the inner fender or body?

[boogieman]

The shoes were not removed. They are in the same position and location as before.

The car was and still is on jack stands.

My car has an open, non "sure-grip" in Mopar speak, rear end. When one wheel is turned,

the opposite wheel turns in the opposite direction regardless of trans gear selection.

The spacers are on the outside of the brake drum just as before.

Installing them behind the drums will space the drum outward by that amount and the

drums and shoes will not align.

Have checked and double checked for interference marks on the back and insides of the drums,

on the outer edge of the shoes, and the backing plate. Nothing stands out as a problem.

Which leads me back to the issue at hand.

As NOTHING was changed, altered, modified, removed, nothing added, what is going on!

Unbolt and remove components, remount as before, locked-up!

I may have to resort to using spray dye-chem to see where the interference is, but there

is no logical reason for this to happen in the first place. I shouldn't have to do anything.

Appreciate all the feed-back but I am still stymied.

[WayneC]

...post #66 "Get it all buttoned-up and back on the wheels and on the ground about 8:30 last night."

conflicts with your statement that the car "was and still is on jack stands"

More food for your own thought...

Does it lock up if you snug the wheel nuts without a wheel & tire in place, or only with the wheels in place?

(eg, is the problem related to the drum/axle or the wheel/tire?)

Does it lock up when either side wheel is installed, but the opposite wheel is not installed?

(eg, is the problem on one side or both sides?)

What suspension bushings did you replace and what is their proximity to the wheels & tires?

Is it possible that there is some latitude in how/where the rear spring is attached to the axle (or difference in the width of any new bushings used) that could cause the spring or bushing to contact a tire sidewall?

Is it possible you reversed a bolt on re-installing something, and now the nut end is where the bolt head used to be, so the bolt end is sticking out too far and contacting something?

Did you replace any old U-bolts with new U-bolts that might be longer than the old ones?

Since this car is new to you...

Are these the same wheels & tires you originally removed (from the same axle)? eg, is it possible the former owner installed wheels with different offsets, front wheels vs rear wheels (or rim widths or even wheel size) and you've reversed them by installing a wheel on the rear that formerly was on the front, and now the wheel or tire sidewall is contacting something (like the backing plate or the rear spring)?

Edited March 4, 2014 by WayneC

[boogieman]

Using washers the same thickness as the brake drum hub, then the wheel spacer,

then thick washers to simulate the wheels there is no issue on either side.

Only when the drums are installed does it lock-up or rub, or interfere with something.

Replaced all the rear bushings. Front and rear of the springs,

control rods both front and rear, spring isolators both upper and lower,

upper and lower sway bar bushings.

The bushings are all exactly the same dimensions as the removed ones.

If they were not the same the spring would not sit in the pocket at the

front mount, or the rear hangers fit on either side of the rear bushing.

The rear axle is located by the center-bolt of the spring pack. Only one place for it to go.

The tires clear the springs by almost 2".

Same exact wheels as removed. The fronts have not been off.

Measured the rear wheels and tires. Exactly the same dimensions, offset, tire diameter,

tread width, back-spacing, even the same part number.

The brake drum locks-up when installed using lug nuts barely hand tight

with no wheel or tire installed.

The problem is in the brake drum, brake shoe, backing plate, and/or wheel spacer area

or some combination of all these.

I drove the car into my shop and now can't get it out due to the locking-up problem.

Darndest thing I have encountered recently.

Why is there interference now where there was none before?

Edited March 4, 2014 by boogieman

[warren55]

I can't remember, did you change the brake shoes? Could they be the wrong width?

I'm just grasping at straws here....

Edit: I just read a couple post up that you did not. Sorry.

Edited March 4, 2014 by warren55

[boogieman]

My bad Wayne. The car was on the ground. Was a few days between that and the lock-up issue

when I put it back on the stands.

Yes I changed the U-bolts but they are the exact same diminsions of the old rusted ones. Besides, they are inside the backing plates and not an issue.

The only bolt possible to interfere is the rear control arm mount. The bracket is close to the backing plate

on the axle so the nut is on the inside closest to the backing plate but not in contact.

Clears by an inch.

Didn't change the rear shoes. They are in great shape. Apparently new before I got the car in Oct.

Just to make sure, I just now checked to see if the backing plate might have been bent or mis-aligned somehow.

Since the axle never came out of the car or touched the shop floor, that is ruled out too.

For what its worth, the only change I made, other than bushings, was to move the left brake line at the wheel

to a location outside the U-bolt. It ran behing the bolts until I moved it. The right side was correct.

Baring something I have yet to think of or someone suggest, I might have to take my 3# shop hammer to the

outer edge of the backing plates and drive that lip slightly further inboard if the drums are dragging there.

It is possible that while wrestling with the rusty bolts during removal something got slightly bent.

I don't see it but it might be the problem. I'm running out of ideas.

[WayneC]

I don't think I'd be beating on the backing plates, certainly not yet.

This is a dohh! guess: did you check to make sure the parking brake is not engaged?

More thoughts...

Is it possible there's some sort of indexing locator on the drum & hub to indicate the drum needs to be in a particular orientation with the hub (perhaps a raised bump on the hub that mates with a hole in the drum, or vice versa)? ...a mis-matched locator bump might cock the drum slightly and cause the drum to distort a bit when the wheel nuts are tightened. The Stude parts manual hub illustration on page 101 shows something on the stud circle that appears as though it could be a locator.

Have you tried installing one drum at a time and found it locks up with either drum (only one) installed?

You might read through the shop manual's rear brake section for clues and note things like making sure the shoes are engaged in the slots at the wheel cylinder.

If you didn't change the brake shoe adjustment, maybe try turning the brake shoe adjuster (top rear behind the backing plate) to loosen the fit (shoes further from the drum surface), install the drum and if the axle doesn't lock up, then adjust the brake shoes to be snug.

Maybe take the drums to a brake shop and have them checked for true and machined if needed (doesn't explain why it worked before removal, but is it possible drums were dropped on the garage floor after removal?)

[Gunslinger]

The shop manual may not be of much help in this case. His car was built after Avanti Motors went away from the original Bendix rear drums and started using (I believe) GM shoes and adjusters. Troubleshooting this may require a different answer than the Studebaker shop manual.

[boogieman]

Parking brake released. if it were engaged the drums would no go on due to expanded shoes.

My car has a standard Chrysler/Jeep/Dana 8.25" rear end. No locating bumps, or keys, or splines, or tabs or

anything to specifically locate the drums.

The rear locks-up with either drum snugged down to either end, or side, of the rear axle.

The adjusters are as they were before, not touched. The drums fit over the shoes as they should with

ever so slight friction.

The drums have not been dropped, kicked, beat upon, nor abused in any manner to my knowledge.

Not by me anyhow, and I live alone.

I even checked with the guys in auto shop class today. They were all stumped too. Seems none of them

ever encountered such a scenario either. And these guys are all about my age too.

[warren55]

I think a fresh set of eyes on the situation would help. Has anyone else looked at it?

I can't help but think there something that's being overlooked, but I can't for the life of me think of what it is!

It's too bad you can't drive it. I've been there before!

Also, I agree with Gunslinger and you; it's the same as a Jeep or a Chrysler back there.

Edited March 6, 2014 by warren55

[boogieman]

My oldest son is a car guy too. Waiting on him to look it over.

As of last week he already has 225 hours of over-time this year.

I may be waiting a while.

Thanks for all the suggestions. So far nothing has fit exactly.

Going to start again from scratch tomorrow.

[WayneC]

It might be worth pulling the brake shoes on one side and installing the drum to see if it will rotate without the shoes. I know you said the drums slide over the shoes with just slight friction, but this is a fairly easy test to confirm the cause is definitely not the shoes. (it just doesn't seem likely that both drums would suddenly start rubbing on the backing plates just because they were R&R'd; more likely a shoe or a shoe adjustment piece/linkage has slipped out of its proper position/attachment)

Another test might be to shim the studs with very thin washers before installing the drum, to see if that frees the drum...

If so, eighth-inch shims for wheels are fairly common, perhaps the local FLAPS would have them for your bolt pattern (4 1/2"?), and thinner individual washer-shaped shims might be available as well, since they are common for disk brake caliper adjustment. But, hub shims might only be compensating for something that's out of position.

Might be possible to insert a long narrow strip of paper (maybe cut from a magazine cover) at the outer edge of the drum while installing the drum, then try to slide the paper around the perimeter after the wheel nuts are installed (no wheel) to see where/if interference occurs with the backing plate. But, I would think if you snug a drum down just enough that it barely drags, and rotate the drum a few turns, you might be able to discern rub marks on the backing plate when you remove the drums.

Here are a few hits I found with a Google search, but nothing really new in them...

http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/wheels-tires-suspension/42595-rear-brake-drum-binding-when-wheel-lug-nut-tightened.html

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/693314-front-drum-bind-when-tightened-lug-nuts.html

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/passenger-cars-suv-service-repairs-no-trucks/433735-rear-brake-drum-problem.html

Edited March 6, 2014 by WayneC

[Tony S]

I'm not sure if your rear uses c clips to hold the axles in but if they do you might try opening up the diff cover and removing the clips . Then try bolting up the drums and wheels and see if it still locks up. You could also try loosening up the 4 bolts that hold the wheel bearing in the housing and see if it makes a difference.

[boogieman]

The rear has no internal clips to hold it together. The axle shafts bolt directly to a flange welded of the end of the axle housing.

End play is .005" to.008" and well within specs.

The axle bearing is a press fit on the axle shaft. Not an axle or bearing issue or problem.

Was going to re-look at everything today but haven't made it yet.

[boogieman]

Finally got the time in my shop.

Don't I feel stupid. Problem solved.

Started adding spacers between the axle flange and the brake drum. When it was out 1/4"

everything turned freely.

Then I realized the spacer is 1/4" thick.

Careful inspection revealed a faint outline of a circle on the spacer that aligns

perfectly with the hole in the axle flange for access to the axle mounting nuts.

The spacer goes between the flange and brake drum not between the drum and wheel. DOH!

Old dog, new tricks and the like. Mopar NEVER used such a spacer there and I obviously

forgot where it was upon tear-down.

Ok. Let me have it. I deserve whatever you got to say.

[Gunslinger]

Nothing to worry about. We all do things that have simple solutions that elude us. Now...if you do that again...you might be served up on a spit!

[warren55]

Boogieman

I'll bet you'll want to kick yourself when you find it!

We've all done it; something simple we've overlooked, even though we know better. I agree with Gunslinger, start at the beginning and look for that one thing you just can't seem to see.

I recently spent way more time than I care to admit trying to bleed the air out of new caliper on a friend's SUV I had just replaced. It didn't dawn on me until someone else pointed out that it was the right caliper but on the wrong side; the bleeder was on the bottom and air was trapped at the top...I just couldn't see the forest for the trees!

I told you! I knew it had to be something dumb!

[WayneC]

See posts #75 and #87

I agree, we've all done something similar.

Edited March 9, 2014 by WayneC

[boogieman]

Update time. The car still leans to the drivers side by over 3/4".

The back half of both springs are turned down slightly and sagging.

Going to have a local spring shop add one leaf under the main leaf to support the weight.

This will be the new #2 leaf.

Then have the #3 (original #2 leaf) leaf replaced to support the new #2 leaf.

They say they can do this for about $100.

Hopefully not too stiff a ride but the car could stand it.

If need-be I can fab up a set of lowering blocks (1") if the car sits too high.

The front is sagging too. Checked with Coil Spring Specialties in Kansas.

They can make new front springs with 1" drop for $280 but need 6 weeks to get

them made and shipped.

Checking Eaton Springs there is no listing for any Studebaker or Avantis.

Tried calling but they close early on Fridays so must wait until Monday.

Do any of the available suppliers carry a lowering front spring in stock?

I'm too lazy to check them all!

Otherwise the car is progressing along. I cleaned up the door sills, polished the chrome,

did some touch-up painting on the sill area, the door jambs, and door edges. Polished the grill,

made a nice front spoiler-air dam for additional air flow through the radiator (nice to have access

to all the shop fab equipment at school), painted it to match, and got started on

cleaning and conditioning the interior. Also added a pair of nice stainless exhaust tips too.

3"OD - 2-1/2" ID but look killer on the car.

Looks like the plan of complete restoration/preservation is out the window.

I gots to put my mark on it. Although rare at 1 of 175 I need it to be what I think it can be.

As always comments and advice welcomed.

Boogieman

[boogieman]

Update time. The car still leans to the drivers side by over 3/4".

The back half of both springs are turned down slightly and sagging.

Going to have a local spring shop add one leaf under the main leaf to support the weight.

This will be the new #2 leaf.

Then have the #3 (original #2 leaf) leaf replaced to support the new #2 leaf.

They say they can do this for about $100.

Hopefully not too stiff a ride but the car could stand it.

If need-be I can fab up a set of lowering blocks (1") if the car sits too high.

The front is sagging too. Checked with Coil Spring Specialties in Kansas.

They can make new front springs with 1" drop for $280 but need 6 weeks to get

them made and shipped.

Checking Eaton Springs there is no listing for any Studebaker or Avantis.

Tried calling but they close early on Fridays so must wait until Monday.

Do any of the available suppliers carry a lowering front spring in stock?

I'm too lazy to check them all!

Otherwise the car is progressing along. I cleaned up the door sills, polished the chrome,

did some touch-up painting on the sill area, the door jambs, and door edges. Polished the grill,

made a nice front spoiler-air dam for additional air flow through the radiator (nice to have access

to all the shop fab equipment at school), painted it to match, and got started on

cleaning and conditioning the interior. Also added a pair of nice stainless exhaust tips too.

3"OD - 2-1/2" ID but look killer on the car.

Looks like the plan of complete restoration/preservation is out the window.

I gots to put my mark on it. Although rare at 1 of 175 I need it to be what I think it can be.

As always comments and advice welcomed.

Boogieman

[Paul K.]

I installed Delrin control arm bushings on my 76 (now gone) with no regrets. Still had a good ride and I am very sensitive to a rough riding car.

What I would NEVER do again is install fiberglass or composite rear leaf springs unless specifically made for an Avanti. Gave a nice ride on the highway but the ones available are for a Camaro. I found this out after the fact and I think they were a little off in length causing the bushings to squeak a lot.

BTW, nothing wrong with a driver quality car in regard to restoring or not. I have only kept a few cars over the years that I restored because they are always worth the most when they are fresh. Plus if you buy them right and are good at detailing, you usually won't lose any $$. Not for everybody but after a few years, I like to get out of one car and into the next. Money just changing hands. Its fun, affordable and a way to stay in the game.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Paul K.

[Gunslinger]

I have composite leaf springs on my Avanti. They're made by Flex-a-Form which has the Avanti specs in their database. I'm not sure but they even might have them now in different spring rates, though they only had one spring rate when I bought mine. They cost very little more than new steel leaf springs but weight so much less that the difference in shipping made the cash outlay a wash. The composite springs weigh about eight pounds each vs. about forty-five pounds each for steel.

Taking nearly a hundred pounds of weight off an Avanti is a good thing. The downside is it takes the weight off the rear which is the wrong place to do so on a car with an already heavy front weight bias. Still...I think it was worth doing. There's ways of making up for it.

[boogieman]

My car and almost all my cars are "drivers". Have had 100% show and race vehicles in the past
but could not enjoy them fully. Built to be driven, I drive mine. Even the 1 of 211 '68 Charger R/T
that earned a Charger Nationals Top 10 award.
I have rebuilt rear springs for several of my past projects and am comfortable doing so
for the Avanti. Cost is low, appearance still looks right, and improved ride and handling too.
Went the after-marked bushing route before. Not to my liking as ride suffered.

Spent a few hours yesterday cleaning and prepping the extremely solid hog troughs for
undercoating. Very minor surface crud as they were undercoated from the factory as
listed on the build sheet.
I had seen the rear drain hole but found one in the front too. It is on the outside edge about
half-way between the front body mount and the front wheel opening. Need to rent a 4-post lift
to fully access the area but a good friend owns a muffler/exhaust/repair shop and maybe I can use
one of his 8 lifts for a few hours one day.
Going to have the rear springs redone tomorrow and check with Eaton Springs about the fronts.

Boogieman

Edited April 27, 2014 by boogieman

[boogieman]

Follow up. Got the rear springs taken care of. Added one leaf under the main

and done.

Front springs now. Eaton has stock replacements for $250/pair.

1-1/2" or 2" lowering springs for $280/pair.

Several of the suppliers have listings for $200/pair.

Any thoughts on the difference in price?

Manufactures? Quality?

[Gunslinger]

Costs have really gone up...last I looked Studebaker International sold their coil springs for $150/pr. I don't know if the quality of theirs is the same, better or worse than Eaton. Eaton may make their springs up as they're ordered...don't know about SI...if their springs have any age or are new production. For all I know Eaton may even be the vendor for them.

When I first bought my '70 the coil springs had those aluminum twist-in spacer blocks inserted by someone. I had a pair from SI installed and have had zero issues with them. Avanti coil springs do have a reputation for sagging over time but hopefully that either won't happen or so far down the road I won't be around to face it.