Bearing/Seal Idenification

[chuck]

My 82's rear is leaking at the bearing seals, what are the proper bearing and seals for the Dana 44?  Thx.

chuck

RQB-3553

Avanti bearing 1.htm

[mfg]

On these axles, it's usually the inner grease seal that causes problems....  Avoid changing the outer seal unless absolutely necessary, because the wheel bearing, whether it's healthy or not, will have to be replaced if that outer seal has to be changed.

The reason for this is because the bearing is held in position by a pressed on 'collar' which needs to be split with a chisel to remove it and the bearing....and these two parts need to come off the axle before the outer grease seal can be removed and replaced. (These rear axle bearings are $90 list and about $50 cost...not exactly inexpensive!)

So always replace the inner axle seal FIRST, re-assemble, and see if the leak is gone before going any further.

Remember, the inner axle grease seal is usually the culprit, and it's very easy to change!

"PART NUMBER"..............Outer rear axle seal, '82 Avanti.....(Auto Zone)#D9912

Rear wheel bearing (2 pc) '82 Avanti.....BCA  #A-10

Inner rear axle grease seal, '82 Avanti.....National #481837

[mfg]

And carefully inspect that rear wheel brake cylinder for any sign of a brake fluid leak.

[chuck]

I will have to look, but there should not be an inner seal on this axle-it has flanged axles and the bearings are lubricated by the differential lubricant.  

 

[R2W55]

I have a question on this also. I have a 78 RQB-2731 Dana 44

I was told the bearings need to be packed, but when I pulled the axles there was no grease in them.  So I are the wondering if these bearing are packed or are lubricated by the Gear oil in the diff?

Is the 'black donut' to left of the bearing in the above picture,  the rear seal or is there a pressed in seal in the housing? While I did not fully pull the axle, the bearing looked like it would slide off, after toward this  inner seal after it was slid off.

Both of my bearings were floating on the shaft but The bearing on the drivers side of my car was separating so I will have to replace it.  Are the above numbers good for the 78? 

I had gotten the following numbers which do come up on a google search.

Inner: National 34419

Bearing: Timken U360L

Outer seal had 2 numbers: Chicago Rawhide, 2 lips, 15142 and 1 Lips 15141..  do not know what this the 'Lips mean or which I have.

It looked to me that the Outer seals were pressed into the Brake backing plate.  Again on my car one was loose the other intact

[R2W55]

Ah, if a picture is worth a thousand words then a U Tube video is worth a million!.  Just viewed a video on this and all became clear.  The 'donut' I was referring to is the bearing collar and the inner seal is actually the outer race on the bearing.  Yes you have to drill/cut and chisel this part off including the bottom race of the bearing.  Let the fun begin!

I also think that the bearing is a sealed unit and NOT lubricated by the Gear oil.  So I am glade I pulled them to check them

[mfg]

10 hours ago, chuck said:

I will have to look, but there should not be an inner seal on this axle-it has flanged axles and the bearings are lubricated by the differential lubricant.  

 

Yep!, there is DEFINITELY an inner seal on this type of Dana 44 rear axle....it's about 4" in from the side 'face' of the axle housing

[mfg]

8 hours ago, R2W55 said:

I have a question on this also. I have a 78 RQB-2731 Dana 44

I was told the bearings need to be packed, but when I pulled the axles there was no grease in them.  So I are the wondering if these bearing are packed or are lubricated by the Gear oil in the diff?

Is the 'black donut' to left of the bearing in the above picture,  the rear seal or is there a pressed in seal in the housing? While I did not fully pull the axle, the bearing looked like it would slide off, after toward this  inner seal after it was slid off.

Both of my bearings were floating on the shaft but The bearing on the drivers side of my car was separating so I will have to replace it.  Are the above numbers good for the 78? 

I had gotten the following numbers which do come up on a google search.

Inner: National 34419

Bearing: Timken U360L

Outer seal had 2 numbers: Chicago Rawhide, 2 lips, 15142 and 1 Lips 15141..  do not know what this the 'Lips mean or which I have.

It looked to me that the Outer seals were pressed into the Brake backing plate.  Again on my car one was loose the other intact

The rear axle bearing, BCA..A-10, used in this style Dana '44', is lubricated by the rear axle fluid, and it is not recommended it be packed with grease, as you would normally do in a 'Studebaker Avanti style' Dana 44.

The "black donut" to the left of the rear axle bearing in the above photo is the steel collar which holds the bearing in position......There is 'NO WAY' that bearing is going to be moved without splitting the "black donut" with a cold chisel, then sliding it off.....And, the new bearing and collar should carefully be re-installed using a hydraulic press. (Outer seal to be slid on first!)

There is a specific clearance between this rear axle bearing and its collar (the "black donut"!)....Specs are packed with the new bearing.

All this effort is why, as I stated before, DO NOT change the outer seal unless absolutely necessary!

[mfg]

3 hours ago, R2W55 said:

Ah, if a picture is worth a thousand words then a U Tube video is worth a million!.  Just viewed a video on this and all became clear.  The 'donut' I was referring to is the bearing collar and the inner seal is actually the outer race on the bearing.  Yes you have to drill/cut and chisel this part off including the bottom race of the bearing.  Let the fun begin!

I also think that the bearing is a sealed unit and NOT lubricated by the Gear oil.  So I am glade I pulled them to check them

You're getting it now, however, when you say "the inner seal is actually the outer race on the bearing".... that isn't correct.

The outer race of this bearing fits tightly into a machined area at the outer end of the rear axle tube.....The inner grease seal is an inch or two farther in

[R2W55]

I just pulled the axle and you are correct.  This also supports my thought that the bearing is NOT lubricated by the Gear lube in the diff.

Unfortunately, on my driver side, the bearing  is separating from the rollers. Since I am this far, and  I am doing a frame off, I am going to replace all the seals and the bearings.

Confusing the matter is I have multiple part numbers for all the parts.  Have you ordered and used the part numbers you supplied above? I have different (but similar) numbers from another member.  But I have found out that there are a lot parts that will interchange.

 

[mfg]

7 hours ago, R2W55 said:

I just pulled the axle and you are correct.  This also supports my thought that the bearing is NOT lubricated by the Gear lube in the diff.

Unfortunately, on my driver side, the bearing  is separating from the rollers. Since I am this far, and  I am doing a frame off, I am going to replace all the seals and the bearings.

Confusing the matter is I have multiple part numbers for all the parts.  Have you ordered and used the part numbers you supplied above? I have different (but similar) numbers from another member.  But I have found out that there are a lot parts that will interchange.

 

Yes, all three part numbers I've listed above I have purchased recently and used on two different Avantis. (an '81 and an '83)

[mfg]

Just to be clear on this matter of rear wheel bearing lubrication, the BCA A-10 wheel bearing we are discussing here is a 'wet', NOT a 'sealed' bearing.

It is indeed lubricated by differential lube....That's why the necessity of having an outer grease seal.

[mfg]

Sorry!,..........just one more thought here!...........Before installing the outer race of this A-10 rear wheel bearing, coat the machined surface inside the rear axle housing with 'locktite', THEN push the new outer race 'home'...........Ed

[R2W55]

I appreciate the information but How does the Gear Lube in the Differential get to the bearing if you have a inner seal?.

[mfg]

3 hours ago, R2W55 said:

I appreciate the information but How does the Gear Lube in the Differential get to the bearing if you have a inner seal?.

I believe the spinning motion of the axle shaft delivers 'just enough' rear end lube past the inner seal to the L&R wheel bearings.

When you purchase your new bearings, the instructions will indicate the bearings should not be saturated with wheel bearing grease.....however, to be completely honest with you, I did apply a bit of grease to the rear wheel bearings on both Avantis which I worked on...'Just In Case'!!

I mean, how can wheel bearing grease be detrimental to an unsealed tapered roller bearing, with separate outer race, which is exactly what the A-10 is??

[chuck]

I've been out-of-town for two weeks and the Avanti has been sitting on the lift.  I finally got back to the rear axle tonight.  It has an inner seal and an outer seal.  Had to tear up the seal to get it out, the outer race was loose in the housing.  Everything was coated with differential lube and there was evidence that the bearing had been packed with bearing grease-a half moon of it around the top of the seal I mangled to get out.  The shaft shows where the inner seal was running on the shaft.  This does not seem consistent with what I have heard about 1982's.  I would not have expected an inner seal or bearing grease.  I have found a Spicer document on-line called X510-7, Front and Rear Axle Kits Miscellaneous Models 1979-1985 that has several pages specifically on Avanti rear axles and it shows both seals.  It shows all the part numbers but has a note on the rear seal/bearings to consult the manufacturer!  On facebook group, I got a referral to use a Spicer 706517X kit for the rebuild of the rear bearings/seals.  This looks right in the pictures although it appears to have roller bearings-no big deal, I have replaced cone bearings with rollers on other cars.  Working on an Avanti always results in a fun search for parts.  I just wonder why everyone says the later years were lubed by the diff oil-while this one was for the last few years, it didn't appear to be meant to be!!!

chuck

RQB-3553 

[mfg]

Your photos do show the correct rear wheel bearing (A-10) and inner and outer seals as used on '79-'85 Avanti Dana rear axles........As I mentioned before, BCA instructions, which are packaged with the bearing, indicate wheel bearing grease should not be added to the bearing.... however, on the two I've done I have added some bearing grease ....As I mentioned before..."Just in case!"

Recently, I spoke to a long time mechanic whom I've known for years, and he indicated that he'd definitely use wheel bearing grease on a this type of 'cone' wheel bearing no matter what the instructions said....better be safe than sorry!....So there you go!

[Avanti83]

Probably to late but my 74 axle assembly looks like yours with the 6 instead of 4 attachment bolts. When I changed gear ratios and added trac lok IIRC I used a 72 IH Scout 2 rear axle bearing assembly kit. https://scoutparts.com/Dana_44_Rear_Axle_Bearing_And_Seal_Kit_394686C91_Scout_II_Scout_II_Diesel/p14076 The kit will also fit my 83 rear assembly as I bought the parts for it but ended up having it done professionally so They were available when I did my 74.

I also greased the rear wheel bearings before installation. I can't say how long it'll last as it won't hit the road until late spring. Just can't stand the thought of steel on steel with no lube no matter how short the contact time.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Avanti83

[R2W55]

Well I also talked to a couple of other mechanics and they all recommended I pack the bearings. I figured if the differential lube does get past the seals it will wash the grease out and either way I’m safe. 

I bought the bearing/seals kit someone posted on Avanti Forum.  The fit perfectly and was about $50 fir the whole set , both sides.  

On a side note just put Turner brake kit on front. 

[R2W55]

I meant the AOAI Facebook page. Not forum.  Get the two mixed up sometimes!

[mfg]

This wheel bearing issue is a good example of why it would have been nice that, if the Altman's had been financially able, they would have produced a 'dedicated' Avanti ll shop manual. (through 1982)

A shop manual such as that could have detailed the differences/changes between the Studebaker Avantis and the later Avanti ll models.

Because there was no Avanti ll shop manual, present Avanti ll owners have to 'wing it' as best they can.

The confusion on this thread concerning what rear axle bearing/seals to use is a good example of the need for a manual which would cover '66-'85 Avanti cars..............Ed

Edited January 20, 2019 by mfg

[R2W55]

As I continue to piece My 78 back together (RQB-2731), I am putting a notebook together with parts and alternates that I find that work.  I am also trying to keep notes (if I can read my own handwriting) about any problems and modifications I have to do.  A Frame off restoration is not an overnight project so this might take awhile.

A lot of this information and guidance comes from other Avanti owners, like yourself, Gunslinger, and my local Chicago chapter to name a few. You all have years of experience and I greatly appreciate the information and advice. 

As they say, anyone can take a car apart.  It's putting it back together that's the challenge.  I also say that's the FUN of this hobby!