Avanti Color!

[mfg]

Isn't it amazing though, that the car even still exists??!!!!!!!

[Nelson]

23 minutes ago, mfg said:

Isn't it amazing though, that the car even still exists??!!!!!!!

It really is amazing and the fact it’s never been repainted is also amazing. As I mentioned on the poster write up, all it’s battle scars are still there and each one has a story that could be told with enough research. That is very true with this car. If you compare the under hood damage of 1016 with the Hot Rod  and Motor Trend road test photos the damage signature is identical on both cars. Even without a body number you know it is the same car. Hence the internal debate on just how far to go with a restoration.

[Geoff]

17 hours ago, Nelson said:

Geoff. Not sure where you get “ the fact it was a manual R4” ? Do you know aomething I don’t.? 

Nope, just that it was built as a manual car, and Paxton later installed an automatic and an R4. They were testing something interesting there.

[Geoff]

I'm confused about these claims for 1016. Why did Andy Granatelli say to my dad, "No, that was the one we stroked" when discussing RS1021 (the engine in 1025). Andy's reasoning behind the stroking being to give better low end power to loan out to magazines for testing at the drag strip.

That was the day's thinking. Big bore & short stroke was the 'spin it to the stratosphere' build for high rev power, so a longer stroke was thought to equate to a boost in the lower rev range.

My dad had a personal experience with the Paxton blower seizing, and it flipped the belts when he had it as a daily driver in the 1970s. Luckily nothing got ingested though artifacts made it into the pressure box but that's where they remained. Afterward he had the blower sent to Santa Monica for a rebuild.

[Nelson]

I really doubt Andy related to his daily driver by “serial number 1025” but recognized the fact that your dad had a turquoise/turquoise automatic Avanti like he remembered back in the day. After twenty, thirty or forty years pass by a person’s memory can get pretty foggy. Andy pretty much embellished stories and back when I talked to him I noticed he would quiz me about my question in order to get the answer I was looking for. In a way he wanted a multiple choice. I think in 1025’s case he answered your dad’s questions as if your dad owned 1016 and even then he over embellished the answers. 
I don’t know for certain that 1016 was delivered from Paxton to the first buyer with an R4. I can assume it was but then the R3 induction system leaves me scratching my head. 

The link up of 1016 to the Hot Rod and Motor Trend R3 tests is totally complete. The scratches or damage under the hood are very unique as you can see.  All the under hood shots show this exact same unique damage and finally one photo shows the unique damage along with the body number in the same photo. I think that is very conclusive. If that’s not enough there is a lot more like tow bar brackets welded to the front bumper supports, damage in the air dam area etc. 1025 has R3 upper control arms and 1016 does not now or in the photos. The air cleaner configuration on 1025 is post production where as 1016 is preproduction and matches the road test photos. 

In an issue of Popular Mechanics a zero to sixty time was done for two R2 Avantis. One was a four speed the other a power shift. The times would have been 6.7 seconds for both but the automatic would stumble initially which hurt its time. The magazine recognized this and said the automatic would have matched the four speed if it wasn’t for that initial hesitation. These times were the best I have seen recorded in a road test with the R2. My thought initially was these cars were 1016 and 1025 with worked over R2”s. This could be if the road test were early and done in California but probably not true if they were done in South Bend.

1025 was Andy’s personal everyday driver. I’m sure it performed well but I’m sure it wasn’t driven on the ragged edge for a road test then driven to the grocery store by Andy’s wife. Tow bar brackets were welded to 1016 for a reason.

 

 

[mfg]

This trivia question has definitely stirred up special interest!

Twelve hundred views! (including, of course, the various posters comments)

63R1016 & 1025 are extremely interesting Studebaker Avantis...and I for one hope to hear/see a lot more of them in the future!!

[mfg]

Yes, I'm on board for a total restoration of 63R1016...EXCEPT!... I would leave the underside of the hood alone, ( scars), and also leave the Granatelli tow brackets in place.

[Geoff]

Okay, true. Andy misremembering and aging can be a factor in the confusion. However, Andy took a guarded approach on said phone call and asked some challenge questions. My dad mentioned 1025 had evidence of a tire fire in a rear wheel well (I forget at the moment LR or RR but this evidence remains) and Andy confirmed it was the car he was thinking of.

1025 had a Dixco halfsweep 8k tachometer strapped to the steering column because the factory 6k tachometer wasn't good to read to 8k RPM. I'm sayin', 1025 was drag raced by Andy to beat 426 MoPars at Riverside in half-mile competition. I'm also sayin' magazine tests like Hot Rod aren't out of the question.

RS1021 has an 'A' number associated with it, ergo it is an A-series R3. The heads also received the CC stamp from Paxton and the two banks are off equivalency by two-tenths of a CC.

Uh, Andy's wife could have had an Austin Healey, or a Corvette, or a Catalina, or a Skylark, or a Meteor, or a … Especially since 1025 was technically owned by Vince Granatelli (name on bill of sale) but in the phone call Andy said, "Vince's car? No. That was my car!" So no, Mrs. Andy Granatelli didn't take 1025 to the grocery store.

1025 was run like a raped ape down drag strips, sometimes spun to 8,000 RPM, and still has scars to show for it.

Edited January 22, 2023 by GeoffC312
Added clarity in first paragraph

[mfg]

Fourteen hundred views here!!!!!!

[Nelson]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:41 PM, GeoffC312 said:

I'm confused about these claims for 1016. Why did Andy Granatelli say to my dad, "No, that was the one we stroked" when discussing RS1021 (the engine in 1025). Andy's reasoning behind the stroking being to give better low end power to loan out to magazines for testing at the drag strip.

That was the day's thinking. Big bore & short stroke was the 'spin it to the stratosphere' build for high rev power, so a longer stroke was thought to equate to a boost in the lower rev range.

My dad had a personal experience with the Paxton blower seizing, and it flipped the belts when he had it as a daily driver in the 1970s. Luckily nothing got ingested though artifacts made it into the pressure box but that's where they remained. Afterward he had the blower sent to Santa Monica for a rebuild.

 

[Nelson]

Mrs Granatelli, I believe it was Dolly, taking the Avanti to the grocery store was a tongue in cheek comment but I’m sure Vince or Andy did drive 1025 regularly. I don’t think 1016 was considered a daily driver.

The tach on the steering column sounds right for 1025 as Paxton sold those iI guess but if you look at the photos at Riverside there is a factory 8k tach in the dash not on the column. 

Geoff, I’ve gone through every solid claim associated with 1025 as I wanted to be absolutely certain I was correct. Initially and very early on I thought the HRM and MT test car was 1016 based on a cursory look at it back in the 80’s. I commented on it back when 1025 started to make the claim to be the test car on this forum. The comments fell totally on deaf ears. I just let it go as I had no skin in the game and nothing to really go by other than my gut feel at he time. When I looked at 1016 in South Bend last year I bought the car five minutes after I looked under the hood. I’m no amateur when it comes to Paxton built cars and 1016 was obviously a Paxton built car. The car inspired a research project I hadn’t done in a long time. The fellow who bought 1025 actually guided me in the direction of the photo archives. He probably regrets that now and I feel bad about that but facts are facts and correct history is paramount. Even before the archives I could see a match up to the under hood scratches. I even looked at the orientation of the stripe on the heater hoses as 1016’s were still the originals. These even matches up to the test car. I just don’t understand how you can dispute what I’ve found as anything but concrete certainty. It isn’t here say it’s hard evidence and lots and lots of it.

[Avanti1963!]

I have independently thoroughly reviewed the evidence and 1016 is positively the Hot Rod car.  Sometimes the stories that you hear all these years are hard to let go but, for accuracy and prosperity, 1016 should be recognized as the actual Hot Rod car, without dispute.  I understand that 1025 is a unique car in its own way also and the owner should be very proud of it.  Both cars are really cool pieces of history.

[mfg]

As an aside to this story...I was one of the motorhead 'kids' who went to my local newstand every month to purchase HRM, CAR LIFE, MOTOR TREND, etc....of course, I was thrilled to read the HRM road test of a Studebaker Avanti 'R3'!!

Anyway, the photos in the article were all in black & white, and for many, many years I thought the HRM Avanti was painted AVANTI RED...The black & white photos of the car simply 'looked' red to me...The fact the HRM Avanti was painted AVANTI TURQUOISE was a big surprise to me!

[Geoff]

I've only heard what my uncle and dad have said. They had a handful of discussions with Vince Granatelli over the years, and my dad had one phone call with Andy.

I can let go of anything at the drop of a hat; although I am interested in getting to the hard and firm truth of 25's history. It was Andy's car and he used it on the drag strip. Andy also said 25 held a class record for Riverside in half-mile competition. Vince said 25 was the fastest accelerating car they had at their disposal.

Now the daunting task becomes, what exactly did 1025 do? Why exactly did Paxton punch the stroke to 3.75"? How much of what Vince and Andy had said is true? I'll keep my eyes and ears open for the new owner's findings.

[Nelson]

Geoff. I’m sure tracking down info on your dad’s car won’t be easy. I have a tendency to believe the 1/8 stroker story as it would improve sprint times but that also makes the story of 8000 rpm less plausible. In looking through the archives I looked at a lot of Avantis but 1025 was not one of them. The fact that it was Andy’s or Vince’s Avanti is in itself impressive. If I run across anything I will share it with you.

[Nelson]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:52 AM, mfg said:

As an aside to this story...I was one of the motorhead 'kids' who went to my local newstand every month to purchase HRM, CAR LIFE, MOTOR TREND, etc....of course, I was thrilled to read the HRM road test of a Studebaker Avanti 'R3'!!

Anyway, the photos in the article were all in black & white, and for many, many years I thought the HRM Avanti was painted AVANTI RED...The black & white photos of the car simply 'looked' red to me...The fact the HRM Avanti was painted AVANTI TURQUOISE was a big surprise to me!

Ed, I used to think the same thing. I was certain the car was red with a black interior. I was talking with George Krem day before yesterday at a car show in Az and road test car came up in the conversation. He mentioned the anticipated color in his mind was red/black. I think the black and white photos misled us and the fact that you would think the factory would have authorized a hot looking color like red not the conservative turquoise.

[Geoff]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:38 PM, Nelson said:

… I have a tendency to believe the 1/8 stroker story as it would improve sprint times but that also makes the story of 8000 rpm less plausible. …

I definitely hear your performance concerns. When Andy said eight thousand RPM, my dad said his jaw dropped and he nearly hit the floor. Andy said it was at that RPM the supercharger was providing quite a bit more power, enough to run down 426 (probably max wedge) equipped MoPars in 1/2 mile drags.

In the 1970s when my dad and uncle were driving the car, I heard they wound the tachometer past the 6 until the needle pointed somewhere between the M and P (the Dixco half sweep was gone, either before or during Bill Alderman's ownership). They knew 7000 was possible (I presume from the HR article) but never thought that 8000 was.

Lately when my dad had been sharing the phone conversation, he was reminding people that Andy had a whole shop and various Studebaker parts at his disposal; Andy may not have worried too much if RS1021 grenaded.

RS1021's heads are ported, polished, and flowed, and I hear there are triple valve springs, those coiled in the opposite direction. It wouldn't surprise me if Andy was really beating the tar out of that car. Since centrifugal SC love more revs, more revs is what that particular car saw.

By the time I was driving it in the middle 1990s, the internals were tired and valve float would start north of 5500. I only barely kissed 6000 in 2nd on a freeway one time the whole time I had the wheel. Therein contains my desire to build an R1025 clone, except with a manual trans. When the new owner gets the engine torn down, I would love a machinist to fill in ALL of the blanks.

[mfg]

Hi Geoff...yes, it will be most interesting to find out what the Granatelli's did inside that engine! 🙂

[mfg]

Whew!.....1900 views!! 😳