Electric Antenna 2 wire vs 3 wire?

[JavierB]

Hey again.

I have a replacement HIA antenna for the 81.  Off of images it seemed like the same thing, but its a little different.  Its a little shorter (not an issue I think), and it also has TWO wires (red/white) instead of the THREE (brown, yellow, white) coming out of the original.  (apart from the antennae reception connection which is separate.)

Any insight here about wiring these things?  thanks!

 

[Gunslinger]

The third wire is probably for automatic up and down when the radio is powered.  With the two wire hookup you won't have that function...just the switch to run the antenna up and down.  

[JavierB]

59 minutes ago, Gunslinger said:

The third wire is probably for automatic up and down when the radio is powered.  With the two wire hookup you won't have that function...just the switch to run the antenna up and down.  

Hmm... I dont think mine was ever automatic.  I have a switch under the dash to the left of the steering column.  I could get it to go up and down somewhat before within limits by using the switch, but nothing ever happened if i turned the radio on or off.  I guess I'll try and crane my head under the dash and see if I can tell what wires are at the switch.

 

 

 

[JavierB]

 

😕

Update: so the antennae makes a click sound but thats it.  One click, like maybe a relay inside, and nothing, no up no down.

I figured out the 3 wires are basically a way to switch the polarity for up and down.  Yellow/Brown went one way, Yellow/White was reverse.

but no combination of wiring makes the new one go anywhere.  One click is all i get for my trouble.  Next is I guess opening it up.

 

[Jim78]

15 hours ago, JavierB said:

 

😕

Update: so the antennae makes a click sound but thats it.  One click, like maybe a relay inside, and nothing, no up no down.

I figured out the 3 wires are basically a way to switch the polarity for up and down.  Yellow/Brown went one way, Yellow/White was reverse.

but no combination of wiring makes the new one go anywhere.  One click is all i get for my trouble.  Next is I guess opening it up.

 

Before opening it up, consider the possibility that the new antenna may use case ground as part of the circuit.  Ground the motor to your battery "-", and try applying "+" to each of the wires, in turn.  If this works, you will need to connect a ground wire to the motor as the body will not supply a ground path.

[JavierB]

8 hours ago, Jim78 said:

Before opening it up, consider the possibility that the new antenna may use case ground as part of the circuit.  Ground the motor to your battery "-", and try applying "+" to each of the wires, in turn.  If this works, you will need to connect a ground wire to the motor as the body will not supply a ground path.

Hi Jim.

Well that was a good idea, and it did sort of work, or it was a coincidence, i'm not sure.  I mean after grounding the chassis of the device, the motor actually ran for a couple of seconds and retracted a small bit of antenna i had manually cranked out after disassembling the thing.  but it would only go in one direction ("down") and then stopped working again.  Now that its out of the car and inside (i'm using a charger as power source) I can hear that the motor (or something) does hummm when powered.  Sometimes after futzing with some parts, i can get the relays to click, but I only got the spool of cable to turn just that once.  It was quiet and smooth for those two seconds so the motor and gears seem to work pretty well.  This is taking way longer than expected for something that seemed so simple.  😕  

 

[JavierB]

Related Antenna Question:

Let's say I want to chuck this HIA antenna out and just get a "universal" new one.  Can anyone recommend a model that isnt total junk?  It seems like theres one chinese made model thats marketed by a dozen companies but that is commonly known to be marginal on its best days.  I was considering a Hirschmann maybe?  They make some for BMWs and Porsche replacements?

[JavierB]

Hey it works!

So once it was clear that the ground was the chassis of the antenna, it turns out that you have to make BOTH the red and white wires hot for the antennae to go up, and ONLY the red wire for it to go down.   That much works now perfectly.

But on the car, I set it up with both the red & white antenna leads hooked up to both the brown and white leads and the chassis hooked up to the yellow neutral and this worked!  Yay!  and then I turned the radio on and blew the fuse.  😞  Then blew it again.

So clearly this isnt the way to wire it.  The Switch for the antennae has the 3 wires that go to the back, plus two more, black and white, which i guess are the hot and neutral leads.  Maybe I just need a different switch here, one that feeds either wire A or both A&B from the hot.  right now this switch does some weird polarity shift.  why it worked the first few times (without turning the key to the ACC setting) but blew the fuses once we were in ACC I dont know.

 

[Jim78]

Check out Bob Johnstone's site.  It has a LOT of valuable information.  There are two electrical diagrams for the power antenna (10C and 10D).  I'm guessing that you have a "three wire" switch paired with a "two wire" antenna.  You'll probably need to replace one or the other.

https://studebaker-info.org/Tech/Diagrams/AEC/aec.html

Just as a side note, my '78 has NO antenna, as such.  They actually used the rear window moulding as the radio antenna.  It is a continuous loop, insulated in the rubber that holds the glass.  Not the best of antennas, but it works, and there is no external antenna to worry about ups and downs.  I had added a Sirius XM adapter some years ago, and recently dropped that service and added a Bluetooth adapter to my radio.  Now I listen to tunes from my phone.   No antenna needed.

Also, remember that Google is our friend.  There are several links that would be helpful.  This one is very straightforward:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQOPOGmieQ

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Jim78

[Jim78]

The more I think about this, the more I think that we're over-thinking it.  If you were to abandon your existing switch, and replace it with a simple SPST (Single Pole Single Throw) switch, the wiring should be simple.  The switch must be of the maintained position type, not spring return.

Check to see if there is a wire that is always hot that went to the old switch.  If so, run this power back through one of the existing wires and connect it to the red wire on the antenna.  If there isn't an "always hot" wire on your old switch, find a fused source on your fuse block for this B+ power (the "always hot" is necessary to retract the antenna after the key is turned off)

Find a lug on the fuse panel that is hot in the ACC position only.  Run that power through the SPST switch, and back to the white wire of the antenna.  

Solidly ground the case of the motor.  You could tap in to one of the existing ground wires that go to the shell of the light sockets. Or, you could use one of the existing wires back to the dash and ground it there. 

With this configuration, and the SPST switch in the ON position, the antenna should extend any time the key is in ON or ACC position.  If for some reason you want to retract the antenna while the car is running (e.g. car wash) simply flip the switch to the OFF position.

 

[JavierB]

2 hours ago, Jim78 said:

Check out Bob Johnstone's site.  It has a LOT of valuable information.  There are two electrical diagrams for the power antenna (10C and 10D).  I'm guessing that you have a "three wire" switch paired with a "two wire" antenna.  You'll probably need to replace one or the other.

https://studebaker-info.org/Tech/Diagrams/AEC/aec.html

Just as a side note, my '78 has NO antenna, as such.  They actually used the rear window moulding as the radio antenna.  It is a continuous loop, insulated in the rubber that holds the glass.  Not the best of antennas, but it works, and there is no external antenna to worry about ups and downs.  I had added a Sirius XM adapter some years ago, and recently dropped that service and added a Bluetooth adapter to my radio.  Now I listen to tunes from my phone.   No antenna needed.

Also, remember that Google is our friend.  There are several links that would be helpful.  This one is very straightforward:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQOPOGmieQ

 

Hey there.  thanks for the link to Bob's 81 wiring diagrams.  I had not found those and SOOOO valuable to update the shop manual wiring!

So the issue, i think, is the reverse-polarity switch, which the new antennae does not utilize and makes the wiring wonky.  So I'm going to replace it with a DPDT switch that has only one wire hot on one side and both wires hot on the other.  and bypass the switch with the ground wire.

That should be straightforward.  I'll report back in a couple of days!

[Jim78]

I don't see the need for a DPDT switch.  If one wire (B+) is hot in either position, there is no need to run it through a switch.  The other wire (ACC) will be hot in one position, and not the other.  So, the simple SPST shown in my sketch should accomplish that. Simple enough to try a bench check before crawling under the dash.

Just to clarify.  With the wiring as shown in the sketch, the antenna will extend when the ignition switch is on, or is in the ACC position.  It will retract when the ignition switch is turned off.  You won't need to use the switch at all, unless you want to retract the antenna while the ignition is on. 

If you want to have only manual control of the antenna, the DPDT would accomplish that, and you could use a single B+ source to feed both poles.  Of course, that wouldn't automatically retract the antenna when you parked the car. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Jim78

[JavierB]

19 hours ago, Jim78 said:

I don't see the need for a DPDT switch.  If one wire (B+) is hot in either position, there is no need to run it through a switch.  The other wire (ACC) will be hot in one position, and not the other.  So, the simple SPST shown in my sketch should accomplish that. Simple enough to try a bench check before crawling under the dash.

Just to clarify.  With the wiring as shown in the sketch, the antenna will extend when the ignition switch is on, or is in the ACC position.  It will retract when the ignition switch is turned off.  You won't need to use the switch at all, unless you want to retract the antenna while the ignition is on. 

If you want to have only manual control of the antenna, the DPDT would accomplish that, and you could use a single B+ source to feed both poles.  Of course, that wouldn't automatically retract the antenna when you parked the car. 

Yes, I understand, but I do want to have full control of the antenna since eventually I will have some kind of sound system that will have mp3/iphone connectivity, the antenna may not get used all the time.  I dont want it popping up and down also when I'm working on the car for the next... well say X number of months.  🙂

Super amusing new development:  the wire colors that are at the switch do not match the ones that are at the antenna, meaning that somewhere they are spliced.  so my next annoying job is a bunch of continuity tests to match and label the wire ends, because this had to get more stupidly difficult before it could be finished.

 

[JavierB]

Hopefully Final Antenna Update:  It works!  New DPDT switch makes it go up and down!  Yay!  Seems trivial, but required way more days of work than it should have.  The drain tube still needs to be attached, but I'm calling this a victory and moving on.

Back to the Quadrajet tomorrow.