Monte Carlo vs Caprice Classic

[Guest dapy]

Where, when and which manufacturer changed from Monte Carlo to Caprice Classic?

[plwindish]

Its my understanding the switch to the Caprice frame occurred for the 89 model year, by Carfalo in Youngstown OH.

[Guest dapy]

It would be good to know the serial number change over because that may affect the valuation and buyer preferences. Body design was affected among other components. The prevailing theme is that when Chevrolet discontinued the Monte Carlo and the basic cars were no longer available Caprice were. Frames were a different size. When did Carfalo take over production?

[Michael]

Please do not count the following as fact, just a timeline I have put together from newspaper articles, notes from conversations, sales brochures, etc, in my possession.

The Chevy Monte Carlo went out of production after the 1987 model yr. Thus the change required to use the Caprice chassis. In late 1986 the bankrupt Robert Blake owned South Bend, Indiana company was bought by Mike Kelly. Mike Kelly re-named the company "The New Avanti Motor Corporation" and moved the "NEW" company to Youngstown, OH. He was the man behind the convertible design. In Mid-87 John Cafaro bought a 50% stake in the company. In 1988 Mike Kelly sold out completely to Cafaro. The 1988 25th Anniversary LSC was a longer version of the std Avanti coupe. Maybe as a result of the loss of the MC chassis and the re-engineering required to get the coupe/convertible car to fit the Caprice chassis? I do not what chassis was used on the 1988 LSC. Left over MC chassis? I am not aware of a 1988 convertible or std coupe being produced. In the 1989 model yr sales brochure ads referred to the company as "Avanti Automotive Corporation".

[Guest dapy]

Thank you. That adds a bit to the confusion I am trying to dispel. There were 1987-90 convertibles. I believe the early ones were on Monte Carlo chasssis. No question that the Caprice chassis required changed fiberglass...front and sides. Some like it, some don't.

[plwindish]

I like the added body mods on the 89. IMHO it updated the look of the Avanti.

[Gunslinger]

A major headache for Avanti Motors was not having a dedicated and proprietary chassis for the Avanti. Being dependent on obtaining chassis from GM (or anyone else) required expensive body mods every time GM made a generational change...sometimes year to year body mods became necessary. That took up lots and lots of engineering time and money for Avanti Motors that could otherwise have been used for improving the basic product itself. That doesn't even address changing government standards...this was simply getting the bodies to fit and look right each year and plays hell with quality control and consistency. How many owners of these late cars know what replacement parts interchange from year-to-year or where to source parts like for convertible tops or even switches or power window motors?

That happened during the '87-'91 years and again after GM discontinued the F-body platform after 2002 which required Avanti Motors to stock up on Firebirds and then transition to the one year only Ford Fox (Mustang) platform Avanti for 2005 then again to the new Mustang platforms for '06. I love the Avanti marque...don't get me wrong...but that's no way to run a car company. You're always playing catch-up in an expensive way. To amortize those costs over such a low production vehicle may be an effort of love (or ego), but a bad way to sell cars profitably.

My own '02 Avanti is a great source of joy and hesitation...a very exclusive car with a very modern chassis and drivetrain. But it's so exclusive due to such low production numbers that body and trim parts are very difficult if not impossible to source. The GM parts are simple to find...I've reprogrammed the on-board computer for better performance plus other enhancements chassis- and induction-wise...and not all that expensive to do...all bolt-on. But these cars are also little more than prototypes and many differ in details from one to another. If something happens to the body, unless it's something a qualified fiberglass body guy can handle, I'm screwed. I know that and drive the car with that in mind.

[mfg]

Blake, Kelly, and Cafaro all wanted a chassis crafted exclusively for 'their' Avantis......Circumstances worked against them, but I've always felt that the GM chassis, Monte Carlo or Caprice, was a good way to update the Avanti's running gear in lieu of a 'dedicated' chassis. I disagree with anyone who thinks that the GM chassis was little more than a 'Band-Aid', and that money was wasted adapting said GM chassis!

[Gunslinger]

The optimum solution was a dedicated chassis for the Avanti...it just wasn't practical considering the low production volume. No complaints about the Chebbie chassis and drivetrain...Avanti Motors could piggyback on most of the emissions and safety standards which would have been enormously expensive otherwise. Whether using an existing chassis was a "Band-Aid" is really immaterial...it was the only viable option.

Part of the image of post-Studebaker Avantis being "kit cars" is due to the use of such non-dedicated chassis. I'm the first to admit my '02 Avanti is essentially a TransAm with a custom body...though there are some modifications beyond that...but one look at the interior and dash gives its heritage away. At least '87-'91 Avantis have custom interiors that don't give its beginnings away.

Without the use of donor chassis like the various GM platforms from '87-'91, 2001-2004 and the Ford platforms following that, we would't have these Avantis to enjoy and argue about.

[Guest dapy]

This discussion is what is good about this forum. That information (thanks Gunny) is objective and useful. Still wonder about the change over of the GM frames.

[mfg]

This discussion is what is good about this forum. That information (thanks Gunny) is objective and useful. Still wonder about the change over of the GM frames.

You're welcome I'm sure!!

[Guest dapy]

"You're welcome I'm sure". You didn't answer my question. What this forum is worth is something more than your fun and games. I never see reliable answers to your unanswered trivia questions, or an information source besides you. Look at new postings. No one there but you.

[plwindish]

If you read through the Avanti dat base information on Bob Johnstone's Studebaker Information site, he talks about all the ownerships of Avanti production. The move from South Bend to Youngstown took place the 4th qtr of 1987. A little later Johnstone discussed that the 87's and 88 model years used the Monte Carlo frames. It was then stated that GM discontinued the Monte Carlo car in 1988, forcing AAC (Carfalo's Avanti Automotive Corporation) to use the 2" wider Caprice frame. Carfalo took care of the wider width by using front wheel drive wheels that had a high positive offset that tucked the wheels back into the car. I hope that answers your curiosity about the when, where and why the frames were changed.

[Geoff]

As correctly posted earlier the change occurred for model year 1989. To add sprinkles to the story, don't forget that before the factory went to unmolested Caprice frames (as in, whole), they used Caprice frames with 6" of wheelbase cut out.

Caprice wheelbase = 116". However, when removing 6" it becomes 110".

Monte Carlo wheelbase = 108".

and for reference's sake, Studebaker Avanti wheelbase = 109".

I surmise some confusion originates because cars with cut Caprice frames can look similar (yet "off") when compared to prior cars on G-body chassis. Place a 1987 or 1988 next to a 1989 and those 2" are more easily noticed. Watch any of those years drive down the road (without a reference vehicle) and those 2" are better hidden.

[Guest dapy]

Yes, the '87s and '88s do look different than the '89s, however I thought GM Monte Carlo production ended earlier.

Edited January 10, 2015 by dapy

[Geoff]

The 4th generation Monte Carlo ran into the 1988 model year. I'm only using Wikipedia information here, so take it as you will.

This was the last year for the fourth-generation Monte Carlo.The 1988 models were actually built in late 1987 … The final G-body Monte Carlo - a silver SS coupe — was produced on December 12, 1987. Total SS production for '88 was 16,204.

Then there was a hiatus and the Monte Carlo picked up again for model year 1995.

[boogieman]

As a point of interest, wasn't the Monte Carlo a uni-body FWD platform?

And The Caprice a body-on-frame design?

And I know the Fox body Ford platform is a uni-body.

Lots or re-engineering involve there if so.

[mfg]

"You're welcome I'm sure". You didn't answer my question. What this forum is worth is something more than your fun and games. I never see reliable answers to your unanswered trivia questions, or an information source besides you. Look at new postings. No one there but you.

Please,....no thanks is necessary,....I enjoy being helpful!

[Geoff]

boogieman, not the 4th gen. Monte Carlo; it also was body on frame. I also heard Avanti (the company) entered an agreement with an insurance company, and the insurance company used the spare Monte Carlo bodies for claim repairs, etc.

[Gunslinger]

That makes sense...they removed the bodies anyway and there was no reason to junk them. Selling them to body shops or in this case, to an insurance company got rid of the bodies and helped to offset costs.

[Guest dapy]

Thanks to all for the useful information. Any preferences between the '87, '88 and '89 model year coupes?

[grobb284]

Caprice wheelbase = 116". However, when removing 6" it becomes 110".

Monte Carlo wheelbase = 108".

and for reference's sake, Studebaker Avanti wheelbase = 109".

Although published often as 109 inch wheel base, it is probably closer to 108.5.