ASC Sunroof Seals

[adamderosa]

In my never ending to quest to stop my sunroof from leaking, I've decided to try to replace the seals (again). Does anyone have an Avanti II with the early ASC sunroof - hopefully non-leaking- that can post some pictures of seals? In particular I'm interested in how the rear seal and sides mate together. The ASC sunroof was used on Avantis from 1972 to about 1978 I believe; it's just a solid metal panel, NOT glass.

Thanks!

[Raymond Compton]

Hi Adam,

First, it was great meeting you at the 2012 meet. I trust that your trip home was uneventful. We made the 1600+ miles home to central Utah with zero problems.

My '74 has the metal sunroof and does not leak. We got a major stress test coming home with seriously heavy rain about Iowa City, IA. The rain was so heavy that my wife had to slow to about 10 MPH just to see the stripes on the pavement. Anyway, no leaks, so I think that the seals are intact.

The fact is, I have not opened my sunroof completely since buying the car last summer. No point in angering the seal gods. I would be happy to open the roof enough to get pictures of the areas in question. If I understand your request, you are looking for a joint between a rear seal piece and the side piece. How many pieces make up the seal anyway?

You said that you have replaced these seals once. Were you able to find original seals or are yours repros of some sort. My meager experience with other seals on these cars is that repros vary widely as to hardness and even if the proper shape may or may not seal as original. Any thoughts?

Anyway, let me know if I can help.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Raymond Compton

[adamderosa]

Hi Raymond,

It was great to meet you at the meet in South Bend also! I'm glad your trip back was uneventful. I made it home without any trouble too.

You are correct - the seal area I'm most interested in is the rear corners of the roof panel. The sunroof seal is in two sections: a large section that goes around the front edge and both sides of the roof opening, and a smaller section that goes on the rear of the sliding panel. I'd like to see what the proper way is for these two sections to be fitted so they meet or overlap correctly. Any pictures of this area which you could provide would be very helpful. I understand that your roof does not leak and that you have not had it open, so if you'd rather not open it and risk disturbing something, I completely understand. I should've taken some pictures of your car at the meet but I didn't think of it at the time.

When I replaced the seals several years ago, I bought them from Nostalgic Motors. I'm not sure if they still have them available. The original seals on my car were completely worn away so I didn't have anything to use as a guide when I installed the new ones. These ASC (American Sunroof Corp) sunroofs were either manufactured or based on the Golde sunroof design from Germany. Similar style ASC and Golde sunroofs were installed in the late '60s - early '70's Ford Thunderbird, Mercury Cougar, BMW and VW amongst others. I have been looking at the seals from a BMW 2002 which may work.

Thanks for any help you might be able to provide!

Edited August 25, 2012 by adamderosa

[Gunslinger]

One thing to keep an eye on with sunroof cars...Avanti Motors installed the drains for them to run into the hog troughs...but did not allow the hog troughs to drain. That makes for an ideal situation for them to rust from the inside out. As a preventative you might want to drill small holes in the hogs to allow water to run out or as access to spray in anti-rust solution...or both.

[plwindish]

That is some piece of engineering if they drained the sunroof panel into the undrained and prone to rust hog troughs. I wonder by what method they felt the water would dissipate.

[Gunslinger]

I don't know their reasoning for not allowing the hogs to drain, but they're not the only car maker to not do things that make sense. Maybe the issue wasn't even considered or merely dismissed. Avantis had only been on the market for about ten years when Avanti Motors started selling them with sunroofs and maybe the hog trough issue hadn't even become a problem at that point. Now we know about rusted out hogs...Studebaker (or any other auto maker) certainly never expected or intended their cars would still be on the road fifty years later. For it to take so many years for such issues to show up really does speak well for the basic design and assembly...as annoying and expensive a repair it might be, the designers might smile approvingly that the cars were that durable.

[adamderosa]

I agree that having the sunroof gutter drain into the hog troughs is not a great idea. But, has anyone noticed where water from the air vents in the cowl drains too? Pour some water through the air vents in the cowl, at the base of the windshield, and see where it comes out.

[Raymond Compton]

Hi Adam,

Sorry for the delayed reply. We were busy this weekend with our county fair car show. We managed a "Best in Class" trophy for both the Avanti and GT Hawk.

Anyway, if you could describe exactly the picture you want, I would be happy to take close-ups of my sun roof weather seal. I have opened the roof a couple of inches several times with no ill effects but have never opened it all the way. If I can get what you want with a partial opening, that would be great. Maybe you could e-mail me pictures of yours and I could duplicate those shots on my car.

With that sunroof being fairly widely used during the early '70s, have you found any expertise on the relevent BMW or VW forums? Maybe those guys know of better seals? I would expect the BMW 2002 crowd to be as rabid as the Avanti crowd. The way you describe the seal, I would not be surprised if there is only one seal set and you cut it to fit your size sun roof, joining the pieces at the rear corners. Was that how your earlier replacement set worked?

Even though the ASC/Golde roof was used on other American cars, they don't seem the type to have a large, active following. Maybe I'm wrong but having lived through the '70s as an adult, I view that period as the black hole of American auto manufacturing. Those cars, except the Avanti, were mostly awful when new and have not improved with age.

Let me know and I will get you the pictures. This will be invaluable if/when I need to do the same thing.

[adamderosa]

Raymond,

Congratulations on your Best in Class awards!

Don't feel bad about the delay with the pictures; I've been trying to solve this problem for years - another few days, weeks or months isn't going to matter or bother me. So, what I'd like to see in some pictures are three things: How the front/side seal piece ends at the rear corners of the roof opening, how the rear seal piece ends at the rear corners of the roof panel, and how the seal is mounted height-wise in relation to the roof, i.e., flush with the roof opening or slightly below the roof opening. I know mine is not correct because i just had to guess when I installed it as there was no old seal left to use as a guide. If I recall correctly the seal comes in one big piece that you need to trim to fit. I'll try to send you some pictures tomorrow of what I'm looking for. ANY pictures you could provide would be helpful.

I found a supplier for Mecury Cougar parts that has the seals; I might give them a shot on my next attempt. Here's a link to their site if you'd like to take a look: http://www2.cougarpartscatalog.com/67w-sunroofseal.html

As always, thanks for your help!

By the way, I see no one took the bait on my last post. Water that gets into the cowl vents also drains into the hog troughs. So it doesn't much matter if you have a sunroof or not - your original hog troughs were bound to rust out!

[Raymond Compton]

Hi Adam,

I am going to work on cars tomorrow so I will see if I can work in sun roof research.

The project is installing a HD fan in my GT Hawk. I know, it looks simple but there is a spacer issue. Both Jon Myer and Dave Thibeault insist that the HD fan for the '62 Hawk is 5 bladed. The parts manual shows a 6 bladed fan. Certainly not beyond Studebaker to decide that the 6 blade fan was not necessary after the manual was published. Not necessary in that they did not sell enough A/C equipped Hawks to justify stocking a special fan for that car. The book shows that the part number is good for '59-'64 Hawks as either HD or A/C. Anyway, I'll see how the 5 blade works.

With the assumption that mine are original, my seals are nowhere near flush with the roof/sun roof surface. I will place a small scale on a couple of pictures so that you can see how far below the roof surface the seals are.

The site that you linked to above says they only have two seals maybe I should order one too, just in case. The photo seems to show the seal in two pieces, one much longer than the other. So, that reinforces my thought that the seal is sized for the biggest application and you trim to fit, both the three sided part and the rear piece. Now, I'm curious as to how this works.

Any idea if these guys, the shop, or the Couger people, have any expertese in installing these seals? I'm guessing that the installation is the same, regardless of the application.

If the sun roof and the cowl vents drain in to the hog troughs, I bet the rear quarter windows do too. I know that I made sure that the drain hole at the bottom front of the window channel was clear before I reinstalled the windows with the new rubber.

I'll let you know what I find and e-mail you the pictures.

Ray

[p schmidt]

anyone know about any sort of headliner replacements my headliner that surrounds the sunroof is shot due to water leakage (above both doors) it has seperated and is coming down badly

[adamderosa]

I don't know of any replacement headliners available, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to call our parts vendors and ask; maybe someone has a used one that is in good shape and hopefully the right color for you. The one in my car was warped from water damage also and I was able to repair it somewhat by removing it and replacing the water damaged cardboard backing with three or four pieces of poster board glued together for stiffness. When I re-installed it I used long strips of velcro on the backside of the headliner and the underside of the roof to secure it. This repair didn't make it perfect, but it is a lot better than it was. You might also contact a local auto upholstery shop about making a new headliner piece.

[WayneC]

<snip>

Edited September 18, 2012 by WayneC

[p schmidt]

same thing with me.... headliner..went to a auto upholster and he said ...nope!...can't do it said he couldn't make the bends

[J Boyle]

I think Raymond in his post above is onto somthing.

If the ASC/Golde design was used on other cars, it's worth checking with other car marques.

BMW would be great but don't forget Porsche...the 928s of the late 70s had a sunroof, and it might be similar.

It's worth calling a local independant German car repair center and ask. Can't hurt.

Did SAAB or Volvo have sunroofs at the time?

[adamderosa]

I looked at the replacement seals for a BMW 2002 with a Golde sunroof - they were bit smaller than what's used on the Avanti. Also they were just a rubber spine covered with fabric, without the rigid metal strip like the Avanti seal. I contacted Nostalgic Motors (800-Avanti-x) and they have the proper seals available, so I ordered a set through them. Dan Booth gave me some tips on installation.

Edited October 12, 2012 by adamderosa