Which should I buy?

[Kennie B.]

Greetings,

I'm new here. Due to a lot of hard work and diligence on his part, my oldest son has "inherited" my `02 WRX as his high school graduation present. Now I am without wheels. Well not entirely, I still have my motorcyles to commute with and a van when the stuff to haul is too big or the weather is "snotty". Therefore I'm not in a rush, I can take my time and find the right car for me.

Also, my car doesn't have to be too practical. It can also need a little work, as long as it runs well enough to keep my interest. I've dealt with working on British bikes as well as various Benzes, including a 6.9. I think I can manage this marque as well. I'm a machinist by trade, generating otherwise unobtainable parts can be dealt with but if there already exists an answer, why beat my head against the wall?

Due to living in L.A., I definately want A/C. I don't need iceicles hanging from my nose, I just to at least take the edge off the heat.

So this kinda narrows down my options since R2's didn't come with A/C unless someone has a bright idea. Does anybody have experience with Vintage Air and can they supply a system that will work around the blower?

I despise automatic transmissions (one of many reasons I had and loved the WRX)! Were any of the Altman era cars built with a manual trans? If not, how tricky is it to convert an automatic to a stick?

What are the benefits of Studebaker vs Altman?

I thank you for taking the time to read this post and I look forward to reading your responses.

Regards, Kennie Buchanan

[1963r2]

Kennie

Firstly congratulations on your choice.

I will start off by saying do not discount the R2 option. Many have been retro fitted with A/C successfully so it can be done.

An Avanti with a 4 speed box usually has a cost premium over an Auto but I guess if you had all the parts one could replace an auto with a 4 speed (T10).

As to which one, both have there positives and negatives. The studes are generally more expensive and more sort after and an early Avanti 11 is basically a Stude with a Chev motor and can be similar in price.

I don't think there were many 4 speed Avanti 11 made but someone else will answer that question I'm sure.

If it was me the choice would be a 64 R2 4 speed followed by a 63 R2 4 speed. The Avanti 11 is a neat car too so you have set yourself a task in deciding which one.

Best of luck in your search

I'm sure you will get some great information from the membership.

pb

Edited July 16, 2010 by 1963r2

[Skip Lackie]

A few Avanti IIs were built each year with 4-speed through the 1974 model year. I have a 74 with a T-10, which is either the last or next-to-last one built. EPA regs that became effective on 1 January 1975 required car manufacturers to provide the gov't with examples of each available engine/trans combination for emissions testing. Given that Avanti Motors was only selling a few cars with standard transmissions each year, the company decided to only offer automatics effective with the 1975 model year. The Federal regs were changed later that decade to allow small manufacturers to piggy-back on the engine builder's emissions tests, and Steve Blake built a few cars with 5-speeds in the 1980s.

I have no personal experience with converting a car from automatic to stick, but it can't be that difficult. Avanti Motors used the standard Chevy clutch linkage, with a Z-shaped cross shaft and a ball stud attached to the engine block. There probably are only a couple of Avanti II-unique parts, and they might even be available from Nostalgic Motors.

In the 15-odd years I've owned my 74, I've seen four or five other Avanti IIs with stick come up for sale. I think a higher percentage of early models came with stick -- by the 70s, the car was marketed more as a luxury cruiser than sports car.

[BobS]

Kennie

There is probably no correct answer but your thought process is much the same as I went through last fall. I sold a couple of my old cars to buy an Avanti. I chose the avanti II (Altman) for several reasons. After looking at several options I chose an 83 in good shape with all the options but a weak motor and transmission. My initial dream was to build a muscle motor (SBC) with a 5-speed. The manual is easy with this combo as a camaro/firebird setup should bolt in with a hydraulic clutch setup and possible cross member modifications. You can then bolt in any level of power you desire with a crate motor and add the air easily as most later II's came with air. If not any after market air system will bolt in.

When I came to grips with all my desires, I realized my 5-speed dream would be better served with a late GM overdrive automatic. Not trying to talk you out of anything but just where I landed.

My 83 now has an in excess of 400hp SBC with a stage II 200R4 tranny and a 4:10 posi rearend. It will go to beat H@ll, be comfortable as sin and look like most other Avanti's on the road.

Best yet, I've got less than $13k in it including original car purchase ( although I got a great deal on the SBC), it will go anywhere and best of all I didn't modify an original Avanti and I got exactly what I wanted. My total investment will probably be $15-16K when it's finished.

Here a walk around

Food for thought.

Bob

Edited July 17, 2010 by BobS

[ernier]

For a daily driver I would buy the best 87-89 Avanti I could find. You will pay a third to half what a good r2 would cost, garner as much attention from the general public, gain a " ignore it and drive Chevy drivetrain and chassis" that can be modified as far as your imagination can take you with ready to install parts from a variety of vendors. These are not perfect cars and have some less than top notch power equipment and switch gear. Sunroof can leak, mine did but was an easy repair although your results may vary.

My 64 R2 has an overdrive trans, 4 wheel disc brakes and drives as nicely as I would expect any 64 R2 can but I jump in my '88 without the slightest conceren that I won't get where I'm going and if something should go awry I can be reasonably certain that if it's a mechanical issue I can trot down to my local auto parts store and it's on the shelf or available in a matter of hours.

Besides, as I get older, having shoulder belts, locking seat backs and a collapsible steering column are actually important to me.

The R2 has street cred only to the truly enlightened car enthusiast but to the average guy, even the average CAR GUY, the later cars draw as much attention. In fact I think the only reason my 64 might turn a few more heads is because it's turquoise. If it was white like the 88 I'm guessing it would be a draw.

As far as the manual trans...I'm sure it would be possible to retrofit a nice 5 speed to the Monte Carlo chassis on the 87-89 car if you must have a manual shift.

ErnieR

[ernier]

Bob...

Just watched your video and your car sounds and looks great. You built my perfect Avanti.

I have a ZZ4 and built up 200 4R in the garage that I was originally going to put in my El Camino but listening to your car has me thinking that I might just modify the 350/350 combo that's in the El Camino now and put that ZZ4 in the 88 Avanti.

Kennie...a supercharged Studebaker sounds and looks sexy but it would take some really deep pockets and patience to get it to perform anything like a warmed over SBC.

ErnieR

[BobS]

Ernie

No dis-respect to GM midsize but most car shows here have at least a couple of El Caminos whereas you never see an Avanti.

As you stated 99% of the folks have no Idea what an original one is, although more than you think recognize it as a Studebaker product. So one that shows up that looks good from 10 feet with an almost big block rumble and a nice lope at idle attracts a lot of attention.

And the best thing is you don't need to light up the rear tires when you leave. Just a nice slow roll at idle followed by a mild acceleration to let the exhaust rumble brings a ton of thumbs up.

<GGGG>

Bob

Edited July 17, 2010 by BobS

[ernier]

Even though it's a little different I've brought both the 64 and the El Camino to local cruises and most people walk right by the El Camino and start looking over the Avanti.

Now if you should ever get tired of that Avanti of yours...

ErnieR

Ernie

No dis-respect to GM midsize but most car shows here have at least a couple of El Caminos whereas you never see an Avanti.

As you stated 99% of the folks have no Idea what an original one is, although more than you think recognize it as a Studebaker product. So one that shows up that looks good from 10 feet with an almost big block rumble and a nice lope at idle attracts a lot of attention.

And the best thing is you don't need to light up the rear tires when you leave. Just a nice slow roll at idle followed by a mild acceleration to let the exhaust rumble brings a ton of thumbs up.

<GGGG>

Bob

Edited July 17, 2010 by ernier

[BobS]

Ernie

I've owned and driven GM midsize since the middle 60's because I like the looks and reliability. Your's fit into that category of a great looking mid-size and I like the mods.

Posted by ErnieR

[Now if you should ever get tired of that Avanti of yours...], all I can say is when they pry it out my cold, stiff fingers  . This II has started to enter my automobile soul and reminds of all that was great about the automotive 60's. Everytime I point it toward the open road, the rush comes back. But I digress!!

Bob

[Kennie B.]

First off, I 'd like to thank all of you with the advise given. The hardest part (I realize) is that the question I posed was somewhat along the lines of, "Which is better, red-head, blonde or brunette?".

Due to the advise given, I think I can narrow down to first choice being 66-74 Avanti II, followed by 63 R1 (I really like the round headlights). As a note, looking at Bob's Studebaker Resource site I saw a number of Avanti II's with manual shift from the factory, so I realize they are out there. As someone noted, swapping transmissions should be a bolt in swap so the original trans could be set aside should the next owner be a purerist. Personally, I like the earliest version of most any design from a style standpoint, yet I do recognize that most of the time there are flaws, seen only in hindsight and succesive versions address these issues.

Here in California, one additional reason for making the cut-off at `74 has to do with CARB, cars prior to `75 don't (at least for the time being) have to undergo bi-annual smog check and if they change the law, then the factory did equip cars with manuals for `74 & earlier. If I came across a sound chassis with a grenaded motor or trans, pulling the original Chevy engine and using a "crate" engine from GM is a no-brainer. With a Stude chassis, I'd feel more obligated to retain the original drivetrain and keep tighter to authentic standards. On the otherhand, there were fewer Altman era cars built...

Any way, this isn't something I likely will be pulling the trigger on in the next week, or even months. Time is on my side and I'll probably look at several cars before I decide. For those who were worried, I was pretty much decided on not pursuing an R2 at this time. If the bug really takes control and I need a 2nd (or 3rd) Avanti, then yes I would love one but I can see why it would be a chancey place to learn from. Yes I probably go look at the one for sale out in Canoga Park but I'll keep a tight hold on my wallet. Probably take my wife along to save me from temptation.

Again, thanks and yes I will be watching so if any one has any more thoughts to share (not to mention leads) I'll be hanging around for a while.

Kennie

[Gunslinger]

These are my opinions and anyone is welcome to agree or disagree..

With respect to Studebaker vs. Altman cars...

Studebaker Avanti...the original and most likely to retain future value. A bit cruder than an Avanti II as it's more performance oriented. The supercharged cars definitely have panache the others don't.

Altman Avanti II...known for superb build quality (at least until Nate Altman's passing in 1976). More refined than Stude cars and intended to be a high performance touring car than for pure performance. Of course, after 40+ years build quality isn't an issue anymore. Outside of the occasional anomaly of a garaged low mileage car, all Avanti's built are either in need of a rebuild or have been rebuilt by now.

Studebaker Avanti...few interiors and paint colors in comparison. One would think it should be easier to restore, but in practice, no way...hard to find proper matching vinyls, carpets, etc., to do so.

Altman Avanti...huge variation of interiors, exterior colors, etc. Many were quite bizarre in color schemes and trim. Since essentially no two were built alike you can change whatever you want and not really hurt the value as long as it's done tastefully.

Chevy power vs. Stude power...the Chevy engine is probably the easiest engine of all time to find parts for...stock or performance. The Studebaker engine, while an excellent engine, is easy to find stock parts for, but you generally have to order them and wait for delivery. Performance parts for Studes are available, but not inexpensive and the selection is limited.

Transmissions...the Borg Warner Power Shift is an excellent transmission, but servicing isn't as universally easy as a GM tranny. The BW T-10 4-speed is also an excellent unit if you're determined for a manual. With an Altman car a swap to a 5-speed like a Tremec would be simple in comparison to doing the same in a Stude engine car.

Basically...to my way of thinking, a Studebaker Avanti is a great car. I've owned one and enjoyed it for years when I was much younger. When I wanted another Avanti I wanted an early Altman car...I felt I could make whatever changes I wanted without hurting its value. I'm more of a purist when it comes to the original cars...that doesn't matter for Altman cars.

If you decide on an Altman car, I would limit my choices to pre-mid 1970's. Outside of the drivetrain, they were still almost all Studebaker...parts are easier to find. After the mid-'70s, some original parts ran out and they started adapting more and more from other makes. That certainly doesn't make them bad cars, just finding parts sources after that point gets a little trickier. The later cars are nice, though as you mentioned, pretty heavily detuned for emissions controls. Again...my opinion...feel free to disagree.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Gunslinger

[MikeValent]

Collector or show car: Studebaker Avanti

Daily driver: Avanti II

Car to customize: Avanti II