Do you think the Studebaker Avanti and Avanti II are Grade "C" cars and are "somewhat overpriced"?

[Pete Rutledge]

A month or so ago I was in Border's book store looking at the car books (as usual). I spotted "Keith Martin's Guide to Car Collecting." I picked it up and found a Price Guide in it, so I looked for Studebaker. There were only three Studebakers listed: Avanti R1, Avanti R2, and Avanti II. So far, so good, but no 1953 Starliner, and no other Studebakers at all. But the bad news is that the Avantis, all of them, were given a Grade of "C" and an Appreciation Rating of "**"!! I wondered what these ratings meant so I looked for the key. To my horror, here's what a Grade "C" is:

"Grade C. Cars that have some inherent interest but had few special or desirable characteristics. Examples: Porche 914, Saab Sonnett II, Triumph TR4."

Doesn't sound much like an Avanti to me! And what does an Appreciation Rating of "**" mean? The books says:

"** Somewhat overpriced today, or a car that is slightly out of favor. May represent a good buying opportunity if you think the market’s opinion of the car will change."

Somewhat overpriced??!!! Needless to say, I left the store without buying the book, as it no longer had any credibility with me. But the idea that the Avanti was Grade "C" and Rated "**" just wouldn't stop bugging me. So when in Borders a few days ago, I looked for the book again and found it (nobody else had bought it, either). I noticed in the front of the book an announcement that invited comments and provided an address. So I copied down all the information I would need to write them a letter. Well, I've written the letter--four pages about why the Avanti is so special and why it is far from overpriced in today's classic car market. I also recommended they add the Starliner/Starlight coupe. I asked them to consider the information I'm providing if and when they revise the book for its second edition.

Maybe you'd be interested in what the book says about a Grade "A" car. Here is the definition:

"Grade A. Cars that will always have a following and will always bring strong money when they are offered for sale. They embody the attributes of style, performance, historical significance, rarity, and competition history that often typify first-rank collectibles. Examples: Ferrari SWB, Mercedes Benz 300Sc roadster, Alpha Romeo SC2300 Monza."

Now that's more like it. That's an Avanti!

If you would like to write the author with your opinion (or a "piece of your mind"), their address is:

Keith Martin’s Guide to Car Collecting

P.O. Box 16130

Portland, OR 97292

I also read Keith Martin's biographical sketch in the book and I'm really surprised that a car guy with an impressive background like his would let this happen.

[SBCA96]

Opinions are like ***holes - everyone has one.

The guy is probably like this ***clown that I am dealing with on a Mustang site

right now that is infatuated with Cobra kit cars. He had a Pantera, but traded

it for a Cobra knockoff?! I like Panteras, but really dont have much respect for

a little uncomfortable two seater that just about anyone can build in their car

port with hand tools. He considers the Avanti as a nothing car, even though its

very likely that without its influence cars like the Mustang and Camaro would

have looked very different (or not existed). Due to an article in Popular Hot

Rodding about the birth of the Camaro, I typed (but havent sent) the following

letter ..

I realize that its been quite some years since Studebaker paid into the

advertising in your magazine, but at least give credit where credit is due.

The "Camaro Rising" article kept me laughing with its pat on the back

for GM and Ford. Perhaps its finally coming to surface how Ford gave

a Mustang to GM for development, but you forgot to mention that Ford

purchased an Avanti to develop the Mustang. Dimensionally the Avanti

is identical to the Mustang. That "pronounced long hood, short deck

look" was first seen on the Avanti, not the Mustang. The "curved side

glass area and flowing rear deck" was also Avanti, and your statement

"famous GM "Coke-Bottle" look" was obviously stolen from the Avanti.

The article says that it came from the 1965 Corvair, which was based on

the 1963 Pininfarina Corvair show car, but that wasnt very "Coke-Bottle"

shaped. The production Corvair showed up with Avanti lines. I could go

through and pick apart the rest of the article but whats the point? I have

4 F-bodies in my driveway, but its the Avanti that gets attention, I have

tried a few times to get my Avanti into "Under Construction", "Hometown

Hot Rodding" or other, but havent even received confirmation. Camaros,

Mustangs and popular Mopar fill your magazine, how about something

different .. or using Studebaker's slogan "Different by Design".

Tom

[Gunslinger]

I agree completely. I guess the author of the book never heard of people having the freedom to buy and drive whatever they like, and who cares what his opinion is.

The fact is, the Avanti (specifically the Stude variety, but the Avanti II should qualify even more) is a certified Milestone Car. To attain Milestone status, it has to excel in five categories...the model should be distinctive because of Styling, Engineering, Performance, Innovation, and Craftsmanship-relative to their contemporaries.

There are not very many cars that qualify as Milestone Cars. The rub is that just because a car attains that status, it doesn't necessarily translate to values. Look at the values of Mopars with Hemi's or 440 engines...while I believe Mopar made some of the most bulletproof engines and transmissions of anyone, the rest of their cars were crap...weak electrical systems, tinny bodies, cheap materials in the interior, etc. There should be no real way they should be pulling the money they are, but the fact is they are.

Early on, the Avanti was derided as only a Lark in a guilded cage. Well, what was a Mustang but a pedestrian Falcon with a different body? How it was promoted made a big difference, among other things (being available where the Avanti had major production bottlenecks helped as well).

The Avanti has always been an automobile for those who not only like something different, but something a cut above as well. Does the car have a troubled past and maybe future? Yes, but maybe that's part of the mystique.

[billsr2]

Having been in one of those Alfa SC2300's, I think I would trade my Avanti for one...pretty quick!

Thera are actually 2 right here in SE wisconsin!

[ernier]

Taking our inherent emotions for the Avanti out of the equation I don't think the assessment is far off. Considering the rarity of these cars they don't bring much money. A commonplace GM A body convertible of the Le Mans, Skylark nature but not a GTO or 442 will generate more dollars and have more general desirability.

Look at the current crop of Avanti II's on ebay. Last one that finished, a '75, is one I'm familiar with and a very nice car. I think it ended at $7200 and I believe the car was purchase for $9000 a couple of years ago. Avanti II's are a real bargain if you want a fun car but I don't think you are going to see a profit when you sell it. The Studebakers are starting to come up but they don't generate much more than a nice Hawk GT.

The people that are driving the Muscle Car market are getting older and the I don't think the next generation of people with too much money to spend will be clamoring for Avantis, in fact, they may not be clamoring for Muscle Cars.

Personally, I like it this way. It means the cars I prefer to have will be within my reach.

Ernie R2 R5388

[Gunslinger]

Ernie...

I agree with your sentiments for the most part. What values Avanti's are bringing is really a double-edged sword. High values are great...if you're selling. Low values are great if you're buying. The best we can hope for is to find a reasonable compromise in the middle.

As we've already discussed, rarity doesn't necessarily translate into desireability or increased value. The Avanti community seems quite small and rarity and value for an Avanti seems to matter only within that small community...not the general automotive hobby. Advertise for sale a genuine factory R3 Avanti and listen to the deafening silence and yawns from the mainstream hobbyists and investors. Advertise a run of the mill Cobra (if there is such a thing as a run of the mill Cobra) and watch the dollar signs shine in people's eyes.

To my way of thinking, what the low relative values of Avanti's does to hurt us is it makes them unattractive for restoration or rebuilding otherwise. They are simply not cost effective to rebuild compared to potential resale value. That results in more and more Avanti's being parted out when they might be quite restorable otherwise. I've seen several Avanti's parted out because of this. I think the numbers of Avanti's out there is or will be steadily decreasing due to this. For this to change, either the cars get increased mainstream recognition and desireabilty or ultimately what few Avanti's remain will never get driven anymore as they begin failing at an increasing rate and not repaired.

I'm afraid a small bunch of Avanti fanatics can't do it all. New converts need to be brought into the fold.

[ernier]

Bruce

I'll admit I never thought about the cars that are cannabilized, but if there weren't some people restoring them they wouldn't be worth parting out. Actually, the cost of restoring most cars is going to be a lot more than their resale value, not just Avantis. Especially if it's not a top shelf, 99 pt. restoration. I've resigned myself to the fact that I must view my hobby as an one that costs me money with the ability to recoup a only small percentage of what I spend.

I don't completely understand the weak pricing of the Avanti II but I hope it stays down 'til I can buy one. Wouldn't mind building one a lot like yours

Ernie

BTW, I had my opinions on the matter published in the club magazine a few years ago. I also wrote a little "story" as a sidebar to one of the points I made in the letter. I said that some TV hero needs to drive an Avanti like Don Johnson, Tom Selleck or Burt Reynolds. They all made cars desirable and oddly enough the Miami Vice Ferrari was actually a kit car based on a Corvette but look what happened to Daytona values back then. And, the black and gold Trans Ams will be "Bandit" cars even to people that don't know why they are called that. And last but not least, the General Lee!!!

Everytime I see a Mopar going for some ridiculous amount of money I tell my wife that they were not the greatest cars ( I have to be careful she has a 72 Duster ). I was in the gas station business in the early 70's and had the opportunity to tear into a lot of vehicles that are collectible today. I know what they are made of.

Anyway if anyone's is interested in reading my little story I'll post it, might ive you a couple of laughs.

Ernie

Ernie...

I agree with your sentiments for the most part. What values Avanti's are bringing is really a double-edged sword. High values are great...if you're selling. Low values are great if you're buying. The best we can hope for is to find a reasonable compromise in the middle.

As we've already discussed, rarity doesn't necessarily translate into desireability or increased value. The Avanti community seems quite small and rarity and value for an Avanti seems to matter only within that small community...not the general automotive hobby. Advertise for sale a genuine factory R3 Avanti and listen to the deafening silence and yawns from the mainstream hobbyists and investors. Advertise a run of the mill Cobra (if there is such a thing as a run of the mill Cobra) and watch the dollar signs shine in people's eyes.

To my way of thinking, what the low relative values of Avanti's does to hurt us is it makes them unattractive for restoration or rebuilding otherwise. They are simply not cost effective to rebuild compared to potential resale value. That results in more and more Avanti's being parted out when they might be quite restorable otherwise. I've seen several Avanti's parted out because of this. I think the numbers of Avanti's out there is or will be steadily decreasing due to this. For this to change, either the cars get increased mainstream recognition and desireabilty or ultimately what few Avanti's remain will never get driven anymore as they begin failing at an increasing rate and not repaired.

I'm afraid a small bunch of Avanti fanatics can't do it all. New converts need to be brought into the fold.

[SBCA96]

The changes that I have done to my Avanti have created a decent buzz

at the shows I go to. I have had interest from kids also, which shows

that the design has staying power still. I plan on getting it out there as

much as I can - unfortunately the power steering is still broken.

Tom

[Gunslinger]

Bruce

I'll admit I never thought about the cars that are cannabilized, but if there weren't some people restoring them they wouldn't be worth parting out. Actually, the cost of restoring most cars is going to be a lot more than their resale value, not just Avantis. Especially if it's not a top shelf, 99 pt. restoration. I've resigned myself to the fact that I must view my hobby as an one that costs me money with the ability to recoup a only small percentage of what I spend.

I don't completely understand the weak pricing of the Avanti II but I hope it stays down 'til I can buy one. Wouldn't mind building one a lot like yours

Ernie

BTW, I had my opinions on the matter published in the club magazine a few years ago. I also wrote a little "story" as a sidebar to one of the points I made in the letter. I said that some TV hero needs to drive an Avanti like Don Johnson, Tom Selleck or Burt Reynolds. They all made cars desirable and oddly enough the Miami Vice Ferrari was actually a kit car based on a Corvette but look what happened to Daytona values back then. And, the black and gold Trans Ams will be "Bandit" cars even to people that don't know why they are called that. And last but not least, the General Lee!!!

Everytime I see a Mopar going for some ridiculous amount of money I tell my wife that they were not the greatest cars ( I have to be careful she has a 72 Duster ). I was in the gas station business in the early 70's and had the opportunity to tear into a lot of vehicles that are collectible today. I know what they are made of.

Anyway if anyone's is interested in reading my little story I'll post it, might ive you a couple of laughs.

Ernie

Ernie...

Your comment that the Avanti needs a high profile setting and driver like Tim Selleck, Don Johnson, etc., is very true. Twenty years ago when I owned my '63 R1, I got a call from a movie production company regarding using my car in a '60s era movie they were filming in Baltimore (I live less than an hour from there).

I checked it out and it was a genuine offer...not bogus. Of course I contacted them back and offered them the use of the car. That would have been really sweet.

Ultimately, they declined to use my car. The scene it was to be in was at a union hall, and they decided an Avanti wouldn't fit in as it wasn't the type of car that would look right at such a location.

The movie..."Tin Men". Richard Dreyfuss, Danny DeVito...a Barry Levinson film. I never have gone to see it.

But you're right...if just one high profile film and star used an Avanti, values would take a jump.

[J Boyle]

I've met Keith Martin and he's well known for having opinions (some of which I agree with, some I don't) and I'm a subscriber to his excellent monthly pubilcation Sports Car Market.

In fact, I've had a couple of letters published in it..the most recent was about my Avanti buying experience and how it differed from on written by an occasional contributor who bought and Avanti off ebay and was royally ripped off.

One of his main auction analysts/contributors is Dave Kinney...a member of AOAI and long time owner/fan of the Avanti and Avanti II.

I have the SCM 2007 price guide in front of me, it has the same scales.

It says a ** car is "Somewhat overpriced today OR a car that is slightly out of favor" (emphasis added).

I would say that Avantis ARE slighly out of favor. Always have been, always will be. That is why the optomistic predictions and hopes of Studebaker failed to materialize. Let's face it..people really LOVE it or HATE it (perhaps a better phrase than hate would be don't "get" or appreciate it). Unlike a '57 Chevy or '64 Mustang, neraly everyone agrees that they're "cute" or some other adjective.

Few people really "don't get" them.

As far as "C" grade...let's face it, they're regular Studebaker frames underneath...albeit with "hotted up" engines and disk brakes. His exampes of "B" cars are really performace "cult" cars...the "big" Austin Healeys, and the Lotus 7. Both are cars with real entusiast followings.

Again, the Avantis underpinning were rather common.

Let's face it, we're better off ofr it. Otherwise SASCO and S-I and the other parts houses would not be as well stocked as they are for us.

The best news is it saws R-1 prices are up 17% over last year, R-2s are up 13% and there is no change in Avcanti IIs.

[GAWen]

The Avanti may soon be getting the public exposure it has so long waited for. Mr. Richard Sand (the previous owner of my 1971 Avanti II, RQB 1600) has recently published his latest book. In this book, the hero drives a Avanti. Hopefully, readers of his books will be interested in just what kind of car a Avanti really is. Do a Google search to find his books. George Wendell, BrownWtrSailr@AOL.com

[ernier]

undefined

The Avanti may soon be getting the public exposure it has so long waited for. Mr. Richard Sand (the previous owner of my 1971 Avanti II, RQB 1600) has recently published his latest book. In this book, the hero drives a Avanti. Hopefully, readers of his books will be interested in just what kind of car a Avanti really is. Do a Google search to find his books. George Wendell, BrownWtrSailr@AOL.com

I theorized about 5 years ago why fiction heroes don't drive Avantis. For those of you that have seen it before bear with me. For the newer guys and gals...Maybe, slick fiction heroes don't drive Avantis because...

Dan Paxton was a local private eye trying to make a name for himself.

On the outside, he looked every bit the part; tall, athletic, steely blue

eyes and he had a way with the ladies. He had a self confident air about

him that let everyone around him know he was in control. Never one to

embrace the latest fads his clothes, although impeccably tailored, always

seemed from a different era. His clothing was perfect on him but definitely

not the latest in trendy attire. When you looked at him you thought you had

seen the likes of him before; maybe in an old movie or a newspaper photo

somewhere in the darker recesses of your memory. Even the car he drove

was an oxymoron. He always said "they haven't yet built a car yet that

speaks to me like my Avanti". The car he's referring to is over 40 years old;

older than Dan Paxton! It looked new but it wasn't. It looked like it had an Italian ancestry, but it didn't. Dan loved the confusion it caused. It fit him. It would be his downfall.

He needed a big case. He thought his last caper would be the one. He

had single handedly broken up a ring of drug dealers operating in a nursing

home. They were giving Viagra to the patients instead of vitamins. Then when the nursing home population was hooked they started draining what was left of the patients’ bank accounts as they needed more and more to satisfy their habit. Ironically, the only person that offered Dan any thanks when he broke up the ring was the sheep farmer whose land bordered the nursing home complex. It seemed that some of the patients....well, you get the picture.

Just when he thought he was doomed to the dull stuff forever, like the "EVERYONE Had a Little Lamb" caper, as it came to be called, the door to his office swung open. There she was. He had seen beautiful women before, but she took his breath away. He dropped his AOAI magazine and was speechless for a second. He opened his mouth to speak but she

purred before he could utter a word, "Mr. Paxton?" He had to think for a moment but he composed himself and invited her to sit.

She was the wife of a millionaire industrialist. He had been on the cover of Time, Fortune and Barons and The Eastwood Catalog. Dan knew and admired the man. One of the products that made him his first million was a homing device to locate carburetor linkage clips that would disappear just as they were removed. His business grew to include many items that were of interest to the old car enthusiast; his latest was widely used at car

shows. It was an expensive device but one most enthusiasts refused to do without. The generic name applied by those who swear by it is the "A#$hole detector". It's marketed as a personal security device under the brand name "Jerk Alert". It's a nifty item that's worn as a belt buckle and can be set to warn of "know-it-alls", "what would you take for its?", and the pesky "how much is it worth?" bunch that usually sneaks up on you while

displaying your car. Dan had one, with an Avanti he knew to wear it all the time.

He somehow knew this woman had the case that would make him or he

thought for a minute, break him. As she began to tell her tale of deceit and

adultery he could only concentrate on her face. He would take her case for

free to be near this woman. Dan Paxton was beginning to seize.

She believed her husband was having her followed. He was a jealous man. His paranoia increased as his wealth did. And rightly so, his wife was cheating on him. Dan had no idea her husband was about to fire the private eye that was working for him. A high profile private dick named Dick. Dick never came up with anything on the woman. How could he? He was her lover.

She learned that Dick was soon to be fired she wanted to make sure that the next private eye would not have success either. So she decided if it worked once it would work again. Before long Dan was having an affair with the millionaire's wife. But just like the dick before him he was telling his employer that he couldn't find anything on his seemingly faithful wife.

Soon, their trysts got bolder and bolder. Dan was actually going to the woman's mansion to be with her while her husband was out manning a "Jerk Alert" booth on the swap meet circuit. He was a hands-on guy and he wasn't stupid. A few times, when he arrived home tired, full of funnel cakes and sausage sandwiches from the swap meet, he noticed some red spots in his driveway. The first couple times he dismissed them but after awhile he began to realize they were always bunched within a few inches of each

other and seemed to trail off a few feet before disappearing. His suspicion was growing and he decided to alert Dan to the clue he was sure would lead him to his wife's lover.

The millionaire called and told Dan about the spots. His words sent a shudder through Dan. He couldn’t bear the thought of tackling the power steering hoses.

Meanwhile, the woman's affair with Dick had never ended. After all, he might be inclined to rat on her if she cut him off. She was in a worse spot than she was before she met Dan. But fate would have a way of evening things out.

Things weren't perfect with the millionaire. It seems he was conned into investing a fortune in an R12 Freon substitute that was proven to not only erode the ozone but cause impotence in lab rats whose cages were in a room that was air-conditioned using his product. The ensuing lawsuits would break him. He couldn't bear to leave his wife to do the swap meets but it was his only source of income since the advent of fuel injection and the reduced use of carburetor clips. The "Jerk Alert" was critical to his survival, it was the one thing he had faith in, after all, there will always be A#$holes.

He was on his way to his next swap meet and he decided to swing by Dan's office to let him know that he was going to be away and to keep an eye on his wife. As he pulled up to the curb he parked behind Dan's Avanti. He thought to himself "Wow I haven't seen one of those in ages". He had to stop for a moment to try to rationalize why, with all the swap meets he had been to there were no Avantis!! He quickly surmised that Canadian cars just aren't popular in the States and went to take a closer look at the car. As he walked up to it he saw a badge on the side of the car and was shocked to see the word

"Supercharged" on the side. He was impressed. His awe soon turned to horror as he

looked down and saw THE DRIPS that same odd pattern that was in his driveway.

In a moment of clarity he realized he’d been had. He went back to his truck and grabbed the gun he brought with him whenever he did a swap meet in Tennessee. He burst into Dan's office ready to confront and shoot Dan but Dan saw the whole thing from his window and was ready with his own gun. His mind raced, he knew he should have repaired the power steering leak… but who’s got the time? The two men fired simultaneously and mortally wounded each other.

It was a few weeks after the demise of her husband and the hapless Dan when the accountants informed her that she was broke. The Freon fiasco had cleaned them out and they were embroiled in lawsuits with A#$hole protectionist groups from the east and west coast. In a flash, it became painfully clear to her that for all her scheming and cheating…all she got was Dick.

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Ernie R2 R5388