One Owner 66 for sale

[Charlie Kile]

An owner called me to see if I knew anyone looking for an AVANTI for sale.

He has a 66 that he bought new from Altman in 65. It's a white with black interior. All original.

I haven't seen it but he says the interior is like new.The body has some "spider webbing" as would be expected. It's been garage kept since new and he's running out of a place to keep it.

It's the 25th built in the Altman era. One of the few with a 4 speed!

His name is Tom Lonesky phone# 417-840-8100. Located in Springfield Mo.

Charlie RQB3921

[Gunslinger]

If I was looking for another Avanti I'd be talking to him. My wife is very understanding and tolerant but that could be stretched if I said a third Avanti followed me home!

I hope the guy finds a buyer...an early Altman car is nice...swap in a 5-speed manual and it would be even sweeter!

[Kennie B.]

Charlie,

Does Tom have a price in mind?

Ken

[Charlie Kile]

No he was kind of fishing I think.

When he mentioned pricing I told him I thought he will be disapoinded .

Charlie RQB3921

[Guest dapy]

I talked to Lonesky and said he would send me specs and pics. He bought it new when he was 18. What do you think he paid for it then? Not driven much lately. Said I would advise on pricing. I think he wants to sell it.

[PackardV8]

Were the 4-speeds Borg Warner T10 or Muncie? Since the Studes used B-W trannies behind the McKinnons, did N-A also?

jack vines

[Avanti83]

Were the 4-speeds Borg Warner T10 or Muncie? Since the Studes used B-W trannies behind the McKinnons, did N-A also?

jack vines

Can't speak about 65 but they were installing T10's in 74.

Bob

[warren55]

Excuse my intrusion on this thread, but I'm new here and condsidering buying an Avanti.

I've been around cars my whole life, and I've owned my share of them! I'm just trying to go into this with my eyes open.

My initial thought is to buy an early car, but those are porbably in short supply. In fact, I've found them to be in short supply across the country in my short but thorough search.

This sounds like the kind of car I'd like to have, but I have no idea what it's worth! I'm also on the other side of the country (Tacoma,WA), so kicking the tires is out of the question!

I know this is probably the wrong thread to start this kind of discussion, and I will probably start another here soon, but I'm intrigued with this car since it's a one owner with history!

I just sold my 1967 Mustang which I poured time and money into for 9 years. I went through the entire car and made it into a show piece, but had nothing left I wanted to do to it.

I guess I'm looking for a bit of a challenge. Just not a hopeless challenge!

[Gunslinger]

Avantis can be a challenge...no one will dispute that. The best advice is buy the car in the best condition you're willing to afford. If this car is that car, then shipping it cross-country is worth it. You should try and find someone in the AOAI in the Springfield, MO area willing to inspect the car for you and take photos.

You also should decide what you want out of the car...a good driver...a show car? My attitude is I want to get and keep my car is as good a condition as I can reasonably afford and still not be afraid to drive it. After all...the fun of owning the car is driving it. That means it will pick up nicks in the paint or worse...which I've unfortunately experienced, but that's why you have insurance.

The best car you can find up front will save you money down the road.

An early Avanti II still owned by the original purchaser...and a 4-speed to boot? This might well be the exception to the rule where something that sounds too good to be true probably is.

[Avanti83]

I'll add a couple of thoughts to your process.

In my mind, the two most important areas to consider on an N&A Avanti are the hog troughs and the paint, assuming the frame is solid. The hog troughs are about $4000 to replace by a shop or about $1500 to purchase independently. They can be replaced with the body on the car if you can find the three piece type but require the body to be lifted or the rocker panels be cut off if you use the one piece units.

Now lets talk paint. Remember you are dealing with a fiberglass body, and if there are a lot of spider cracks the paint probably needs to be removed to the glass and repainted. I bring this up because I just finished scraping the paint off of my 74 with 150 razor blades and a minimum of 50 hours labor. Media blasting would be a better way for a commercial shop to go, however. The time I am now spending to prepare the body for paint is probably another 30 hours or so. I'll also have about $1500 in materials including paint to finish it myself.

I'm doing this to point out that repainting one of these is not a $2000 paint job unless you have a relative in the business. I'm going through this effort because my 74 is a true 4-speed car and I've wanted one for years.

If I haven't scared you by now, and I hope I haven't!!! Those early Avanti's have one of the sweetest SBC's put on the road and a 4-speed behind it just adds to the smiles/mile.

So if this car is the one you want, GO FOR IT!!!

If you want one with less work and a manual trans, then most any year would work by installing a 4/5 speed manual. Just be aware that the SBC's after about 72 or so are emissions victims. Poor performers!!!

Last thought. If I do another one. It will start with a great body and spent the few thousand dollars to buy an LS Chebby motor and 6-speed from a wrecking yard and just transplant it in the Avanti. They make adapters to put those on old SBC mounts and give the best performance/mileage combo in existance.

I've rambled enough but good luck. Be sure not to go through life without at least one Avanti.

Bob

[warren55]

Hey, thanks for the tips!

I was thinking about the same thing; Body and frame condition are the paramount considerations. The mechanicals can easily be taken care of, especially when it comes to SB Chevy stuff.

On the other hand, a 63 with the original drivetrain would be ideal, in my opinion. The chances of finding one of those for a reasonable price would probably be unlikely, I assume. I also figure whatever car I end up with will need paint, and like you said, will have to be stripped first. I know a couple guys in the business, but I'm sure it would still cost me!

I also prefer the round headlight trim on the originals. When did they go with square?

[Guest dapy]

Warren,

I bought the car you want earlier this year and have followed most of the Studebaker Avanti sales since. I can advise you on those for sale, their condition, location and value. I do not follow the N&A and newer Avantis. There were over 4000 Studebakers produced and far fewer later ones. The 1963-64 cars in good condition command a premium because they a considered 'classics'. Those for sale seem to be geographically distributed. Maybe more in the midwest since they are closer to their birthplace. There is one in MN that might be of interest. If you would like my perspective and some photos let's do personal email. Dave Pyle dap8@comcast.net

[Gunslinger]

Hey, thanks for the tips!

I was thinking about the same thing; Body and frame condition are the paramount considerations. The mechanicals can easily be taken care of, especially when it comes to SB Chevy stuff.

On the other hand, a 63 with the original drivetrain would be ideal, in my opinion. The chances of finding one of those for a reasonable price would probably be unlikely, I assume. I also figure whatever car I end up with will need paint, and like you said, will have to be stripped first. I know a couple guys in the business, but I'm sure it would still cost me!

I also prefer the round headlight trim on the originals. When did they go with square?

Avantis went to square headlight frames at serial number R4892, though R4130 was the car used as a prototype for 1964...square headlight frames, R3 engine, and most of the other mods officially introduced at R4892. R4130 was eventually purchased by Sherwood Egbert, President of Studebaker and without whom the Avanti would never have been envisioned, much less produced.

Here is my rationale for buying the 1970 Avanti I own and may well differ from your desires...no problem with that. We all have our motivations and priorities and what motivates me can be nothing like what drives someone else...it's not right or wrong but simply how I made my decisions.

Years back I owned a '63 R1. I rebuilt the car to stock standards, which is probably the hardest way to do it. Lots of research involved and locating correct and original parts. I'm not complaining, just recounting what I encountered.

I know that Studebaker built Avantis are where Avanti values are for the most part...everything else being equal (which it rarely is). When I wanted to buy another Avanti I decided I wanted an Avanti II...and an earlier Altman car for several reasons:

Avanti II's were built to order and no two were alike. I could change anything I wanted and as long as it was done tastefully it wouldn't impact value.

Earlier Altman cars had a higher content of leftover Studebaker parts so sourcing them was generally easier as Avanti Motors began sourcing some parts from who knows where as time went by and original parts were used up, the need to meet federal regs, etc.

I wanted to avoid options like power sunroofs as they've proven troublesome as time goes by.

Some have said Studebaker assembly quality was crap and Avanti II's after Nate Altman's death quality went steadily downhill. The way I look at it, after 30-50 years original build quality means little. Most Avantis I've looked at as potential buys or seen at shows fall into two categories...in bad need of rebuilding or have already been rebuilt. Only a minimum I can say were good driver quality cars that don't fit either category. Any original build quality issues of any generation Avanti have either been taken care of or have been overshadowed by the car's complete need of restoration. Again...that's my observation and I've not seen every Avanti extant. Others may disagree and they're free to if their observations differ from mine.

All I can say is find out what you really want and look for that car. Avantis aren't that rare outside of the few R3's and retrofitted R4's. If you want a supercharged car, dedicate your search for that. If you want a/c, look for that. If you want a post-Studebaker Avanti, look for that. They come up for sale fairly regularly.

Then...there's always the Avanti that comes up for sale that may be too good a deal to pass on and can change your mind, so prepare for that if it's different from what you want.

Don't expect to make money down the road on an Avanti. They've never had high value in the collector market and that's not likely to change, especially in current economic times. Avanti owners love the car for its design and not because they expect to see a reasonable financial return down the road. I'd love to see every Avanti that can be saved, be saved. I know that's not realistic as parts cars are needed to keep other cars operating...just a fact of life. If you have to restore an Avanti, be prepared to find yourself upside down in the car dollar-wise by the time it's completed (well...they're never completed. There's always something else you find you want to do).

As I said, these are simply my opinions and motivations. If someone's desires and rationalizations are different, more power to them and I have no criticism of them.

[Guest dapy]

Gunslinger,

That is likely the best buyer advice I have read. Are there differences in N/A cars that you consider significant?

[PackardV8]

Are there differences in N/A cars that you consider significant?

Absolutely the worst thing about many of the NA cars are the sunroofs. I personally wouldn't have one as a gift. They all leak sooner or later and to my eye, ruin the lines of the car. Your opinions may vary.

In my experience, the earlier 327" cars felt sportier than the later emissions-strangled 400", 350" and 305" cars; no surprise as the GM cars from whence they came had the same problems. This is easily remedied with a performance built 406" and a 200-4R transmission.

jack vines

Edited September 30, 2012 by PackardV8

[Gunslinger]

I have to agree with Jack...especially with the sunroof cars. He was more succinct than I. Sunroof drains went right to the hog troughs which didn't have drain holes, so it's a prime rust spot on those cars...more so than Avantis in general.

While I hesitate to say one post-Studebaker Avanti era is more "significant" than another is more a matter of personal opinion and preferences. The early Altman cars are like Jack said...sportier with better over the road performance...and much simpler. As the years went by the cars became more luxury oriented (as most all cars did), more complex and became choked by emissions standards, increased engine heat and decreased performance. Again, that's common to all cars of the '70s and Avanti performance, while not a true dog in that respect, still had respectable performance compared to many other cars.

The '70s were the bane of so many cars...Avantis had the ram (or cowcatcher) bumpers added on to meet federal regs, which many have since chosen to remove. The '70s was also the disco era and many Avantis of those years came with some really hideous and tasteless interior upholstery and carpet combinations. Avanti Motors promoted that they would build a car with any leather, vinyl or fabric you specified along with any carpet and any paint color you wanted...and that resulted in some let's say...beauty challenged combinations.

In the late '70s Avanti ran out of original frames and began using Lark frames that were reinforced, but were thinner gauge steel. Whether that makes for a weaker car is open to argument. They ran out of the original steering boxes and began using one adapted from a forklift...that hurt the handling some. It's items like that made me want an earlier car.

The late cars on the Chevy chassis are supposed to be very fine automobiles but lots of things aren't standard GM...no one really knows where to find replacement switches, trim, etc. GM cars generally put the a/c compressor on the passenger side of the engine. Avanti Motors moved the compressor to the left side and ran hoses over the engine back to the evaporator.

It comes down to whatever era car you might find they all have certain issues common to that generation. You learn the hard way (and by the experiences and help of everyone here) how to overcome those issues.

[warren55]

Thanks to all of you, this is the exactly the kind of info I need! Thanks for clarifying the round vs. square headlight trim, Gunslinger. It looks like I'd have to be pretty picky to obtain one of those.

I agree with almost everything stated here. All things being equal, I'd prefer a 63 R2, but I'd be more than happy to obtain a 65-70 Avanti II in nice shape for less money. I have no dream of using this or any car as an investment, I've learned that the hard way more than once!

The best thing about cars like these is that they probably won't depreciate much, if at all.

So, what should I expect to pay for a nice car (one that doesn't need a restoration, but needs some tinkering and TLC) in the early Altman years?

PackardV8, have you seen the private message I sent you?

Edited September 30, 2012 by warren55

[TMA62]

Warren:

Since the convention in South Bend, I have done searches for Avanti's across the country. I was looking for one to buy but also get a "feel" for the price range. For a early NA Avanti in very good condition would likely be in the $10-15K range. One that is in showroom quality would be closer to $20K. But some needing a little more work may be as low as $7,000. If the frame and hogtroughs are decent, the later may be the way to go.

BTW, I did find and buy an Avanti. A '63 R-1 which is what I wanted all along.

[J Boyle]

Warren

I just sent you a PM with the contact info for Club Avanti Northwest...the Seattle-based chapter of the AOAI.

Don't be so quick to give up on 63-64s...there are plenty out there and some are always for sale.

John

Spokane

[warren55]

Avantis went to square headlight frames at serial number R4892, though R4130 was the car used as a prototype for 1964...square headlight frames, R3 engine, and most of the other mods officially introduced at R4892. R4130 was eventually purchased by Sherwood Egbert, President of Studebaker and without whom the Avanti would never have been envisioned, much less produced.

I've learned quite a bit about Avanti's in the last couple weeks, and I'm pretty confident that this is a prototype similar to R4130 and it's not far from my house.

Just thought it might be of interest!

Edited October 12, 2012 by warren55