1976 Avanti II SN 2325

[buicksplus]

A friend of mine passed away and left this Avanti II. I am trying to sell the car for the family.

It had some mechanical problems and had been sitting for more than 10 years. I have it running now, it runs and drives quite nicely.

The story I have is that the current owner bought this car in South Bend sometime around 1980. We have heard about 3rd hand that it was Nate Altman's personal car. Who knows, perhaps he was like Elvis and had many personal cars. Or maybe this is just another story.....

It has some upscale features. A signed Nardi steering wheel, Borrani wire wheels, high end Blaupunkt radio, leather interior. Condition is good, but it needs work here and there..

Anything you can tell me about the car would be appreciated -- problems to look for, value, etc.

Lovely car, that design has held up well for so many years. I remember well when the Avanti first came out. Here are some pix

Bill, Albuquerque, NM

Edited April 17, 2012 by buicksplus

[Gunslinger]

Nate Altman died in April, 1976, so unless it's a very early '76 it's not likely owned by him. The assembly date should be a sticker on the body under the drivers door lock mechanism. The only way to possibly determine that would be to obtain a copy of the build sheet...available from Nostalgic Motors. It should list the customer who ordered the car. If it was for an Avanti executive, it could just as well be for Ari Altman, Nate's brother who took over after Nate's passing. Leo Newman was Nate's partner...it could have been for him or a family member. The sales manager's name was Charles Solliday. If the build sheet shows any of those names it could verify the story.

Most of what I see in the photos was very common on Avantis of that vintage. Nothing really special about those options, but most of the high end options appear to be there. Many Avantis from that time period suffer from disco fever...gaudy color schemes and interiors. That one seems pretty unsullied by that. Many interiors fabrics, besides being gaudy didn't wear too well with time. The leather and vinyl that's visible in the photo looks decent...a good sign it was cared for.

Problem areas to look for on that car (or most any Avanti)...

frame rust;

torque boxes (hog troughs)...they're metal boxes that attach the body to the frame...they're structural and if rusted out can make the car very unsafe and are expensive to replace;

sun roof...often doesn't work properly, if at all after so many years...the drains run into the hog troughs aggravating the rust potential;

tubular cross member under the trunk...often rusts but isn't too bad to replace;

door sag...particularly the drivers door...may be an easy fix, maybe not;

power windows...not particular to Avantis but many cars that old;

water leaks...they seem to be designed into the car...a non-optional accessory many suffer from.

Those are the basic, most worrisome things to check. Any could be cause to make the car suffer in resale and some could even relegate it to parts car status.

As far as value...it's sad to say values aren't what we think they should be. If the hog troughs and frame are good on that car plus no other serious issues, you're probably looking at a $10k-$14k car at best...and I'm being generous. Cars of mid-'70's vintage do not do well in value...it was the pits of smogger engines and lousy fuel economy as well as poor performance compared to the cars prior to that.

You should look at the closest AOAI chapter to you and see if you can find a member willing to come look at the car or you take it to him and give you an straight assessment. Then you'll know what you're facing.

My sympathies to your losing your friend. I hope you can help his family find a new home for the car with someone who appreciates it.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Gunslinger

[buicksplus]

Sorry, faulty post! See the right one below

Edited April 18, 2012 by buicksplus

[buicksplus]

Gunslinger:

Thanks for all that info, it is most helpful. The tag on the door says the build date is Nov. 1975, quite a bit before Altman's death. I will contact nostalgic and see if they can come up with a build sheet for it.

The car is going on a lift these weekend, we'll take a good look at those hog troughs and the other areas you mention. The doors are not sagging on this car. There were some problems with the gas tank that I think are resolved. Are gas tanks a problem area with these cars? Rather odd to have a gas tank inside the car just behind the seat!

Bill.

[Gunslinger]

The gas tank was designed to be between the back seat and the trunk and over the rear axle for safety...it's much less likely to be damaged in a collision in that location and was a selling point since safety was a prime design feature...disc brakes, built-in roll bar, completely padded interior, etc. The downside to the gas tanks location is its high mounting above the fuel pump...if there's a leak in the fuel pump or fuel line, the gasoline will continue to drain due to gravity. Fuel can also run out the overflow tube if over filled and I've found (the hard way) that it can go out the fuel filler onto the fender if filled too high and the outside temperature is high and high humidity.

It's not really a bad location but age takes its toll on rubber fuel lines and the tank itself. It's not unknown for fumes to be noticeable in the car interior if a problem occurs over time. As I said, it's not so much a design defect as age and parts wear, but the potential results can be bad.

There's another possibility for a fuel smell that can be incorrectly blamed on the gas tank. If any particular car has a charcoal filter to eliminate fumes, it could be clogged and allow fumes to be noticeable. I'm not sure if Avantis during that time period even used charcoal filters but many cars contemporary to it do and have experienced that problem. I believe it's cars that have fuel return lines that use charcoal filters...I know contemporary Corvettes do and Avanti II's piggyback on Corvette and other Chevy engine EPA certifications, so Avantis may have used them.

If the doors aren't sagging, that a good thing. It's one less issue to be resolved...and doors can be a major headache to hang and realigning windows. Doors and windows on any Avanti are one those jobs that might take 30 minutes or five days to get aligned properly...no matter how experienced the person is doing it.

Once the car is on a lift, rap those hog troughs their entire length to verify they're solid (or not). If they're good...you're miles and miles ahead. Same with the frame. It wouldn't be a bad idea (if the hogs are good) to drill a few holes in them and spray in some kind of rust preventative, then seal the holes with plugs. Some will say to leave the holes open to allow water to drain out. I don't know which is best on that.

If the build sheet can verify that car was built for Nate Altman, that's a big selling point in any potential sale. While it make not make for a substantial increase in selling price, it can at least get more interest in its sale. Nate Altman was a huge figure in Avanti history...along with Sherwood Egbert and Raymond Loewy. While Egbert was responsible for the creation of the Avanti and Loewy for the design, Altman was responsible for the car's salvation and continuity for so many years.

My '70 Avanti was, according to the build sheet, ordered for John Seaton, who much later owned Avanti Motors, but since he owned and sold over fifty Avantis over the years, it doesn't make mine anything special. It's no more than a footnote to my car...and besides, it's so much changed from the way it was built it's no longer the same car that left South Bend.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Gunslinger

[Kennie B.]

Bill,

Please keep us in the know as to the condition of the underside. If you can snap pics while the car is up on the lift and post them here, you will certainly get more response for the others on the forum, perhaps even a buyer for your friend's estate. There are several here who might be interested of know someone else who is.

I closing, I too am sorry to hear about your loss. It is a grand act on your part to help out like this. Here's wishing the best of luck on this endevour.

Kennie

[Devildog]

Gunslinger:

Thanks for all that info, it is most helpful. The tag on the door says the build date is Nov. 1975, quite a bit before Altman's death. I will contact nostalgic and see if they can come up with a build sheet for it.

The car is going on a lift these weekend, we'll take a good look at those hog troughs and the other areas you mention. The doors are not sagging on this car. There were some problems with the gas tank that I think are resolved. Are gas tanks a problem area with these cars? Rather odd to have a gas tank inside the car just behind the seat!

Bill.

Bill,

I have Avanti II number 2295 with door build date of DEC 1975, I got the build sheet which says Nov 1075 (appears mine was started before yours and completed after). I would guess you have the 400 cu.in. small block Chevy, same as used in the big old Caprice station wagons. Even though these were in the low compression-unleaded fuel conversion era of weenie engines, they are torque monsters. With some minor intake manifold, optimum timing and tuning work, you can increase the performance greatly for a couple of hundred dollars.

I pulled all that era air pump and carbon canister off mine which made additional improvement on the performance. The gasoline odor went away also.

I did pull the back seat and inspected the gas tank and replaced the hoses while in there (not as onerous job as it sounds...one afternoon).

I am not an Avanti expert, but have had old Corvettes for 40+ years which are quite similar in many ways. If I can help you please advise.

Even though I have several old Corvettes (and new ones), I find myself driving this 75 Avanti because it is comfortable and a hoot. Although the carb tunes up OK, I am putting a throttle body EFI on it this week so it is even more drivable.

Joe

Edited April 21, 2012 by Devildog

[Gunslinger]

Going strictly by serial numbers can be a trap as far as determining accurate information. The RQB series began at RQB1500 and not at 001. Cars also weren't necessarily built by consecutive numbers...as you've noted one car could have been started before a later numbered car and finished after....for a number of reasons. The earlier car could have been built on spec...not for any particular buyer. During assembly a special ordered car could have been given priority. Maybe a car was waiting for special order items. Maybe one assembly team was simply faster than another. From what I understand there were serial numbers not used or even blocks of serial numbers skipped...why? I have no idea. It makes for headaches trying to figure out true production figures and dates.

[plwindish]

Bill,

I have RQB 2392, ordered 04/09/1976 and shipped to Hatboro, PA 10/01/1976. Last year I had the car gone through and that included pulling the gas tank, cleaning it out and sealing was done along with replacing the fuel lines. The 400 SBC is a torque monster. Some engine work and replacing the Turbohydramatic 400 with an automatic overdrive trans will go a long way toward making the car more driveable on today's roads and keeping up with traffic.

PS - You might want to check to see if the car was repainted or had some front end bodywork. The Avanti name on the front of the car looks to be a couple of inches lower than the normal position of it. Your pictures show it to be just above the bumper.

Edited April 22, 2012 by plwindish

[buicksplus]

Thanks for all the comments!

I got the build sheet for the car, it was not sold originally to Nate Altman as per the family rumor. Original buyer was Sol Adler Insurance agency in Chicago. I looked them up, nothing on Google.

Build sheet matches what we have very well -- including the rather odd shag carpet in this car. It includes the luggage rack, sunroof, Borrani wheels, etc. It does not mention the Nardi wheel. Says it has Lucas driving lights, I can find a switch that may be for them, but no lights. It also confirms the 400 CI small block chevy, the SN prefix on the engine agrees with that.

Color is not quite the same. Says Shadow Rose Metallic on the sheet, but a tag on the glove box pop-up mirror says Rosewood metallic, a 1975 Cadillac color. I have a hunch these are the same color, but there is evidence of repaint, particularly when you look underneath. There are fairly poor small dent repairs here and there. It is certainly possible that it is a repaint, perhaps after a fenderbender.

I looked at the bottom on the lift. The hog troughs are solid, the rest of the bottom looks great. No rust that I can see. I know this car has been in NM since 1982 -- and perhaps earlier. Power steering valve leaks a bit.

There is a fuel odor in this car. Long story, but the tank was not installed in the car when my friend passed. It took me quite a while to find the tank, it had left town! I installed it and added 10 gallons. I could see no leaks, but after I drove it for a while there was some vapor odor. I wonder if there was some slight seepage somewhere. I am going to drain the tank and test it carefully outside the car.

There is an evaporative capture system and cannister on the car. I found all the parts and hooked it back up. I have replaced all the rubber hoses. I think my friend probably removed the tank because of this odor, but I can't ask him now!

I will probably put the car up on e-bay once we are comfortable that it is checked out and we can represent it accurately.

Thanks again for all your help on this,

Bill