Avanti relevance, '64 #R-4968

[Yeleanor]

hey all.

I have Avanti # R-4968 a red 64. Possibly listed as the New Jersy Showcar.

Also possibly listed as one of the first 15 square headlighted built.

What does this mean?

Is it considered rarer then any other 64 with square headlights?

It is supercharged but I think all 64 are.

How important is it that the car would have to be restored from the ground up?

Yet the chassis and all attached have already been, just body and interior work to be done.

We have had the car since 65 maybe 66 I would have to check.

Any information on this would be a great help.

Thanks

Edited April 2, 2010 by Yeleanor

[1963r2]

Hello Yeleanor

I will try and answer some of your questions.

Firstly not all 64 Avanti's were supercharged. As with the 63 they were a combination of R1( non supercharged) and R2 ( supercharged) motors.

You can purchase a production order from the Studebaker museum which should detail what options the car was built with and if it was a show car then it might be stated on there as well.

As for restoring it, it sounds like you are well on the way. Finish it off and enjoy the ride.

pb

Edited April 2, 2010 by 1963r2

[Gunslinger]

The first production square headlight Avanti was R4892 so your car is about 77 cars in line behind that in receiving the square headlight treatment, though round headlights were still available as an option until the parts for them ran out. Whether any round headlight cars were actually factory assembled I don't know...I've not seen one but it's possible. There were something like 800+ true '64 Avanti's built with the square headlights. Yours is not rare among '64s, but it most definitely the more uncommon Studebaker Avanti design as all the previous 4600 or so Avanti's were of the round headlight variety...outside of factory specials like R4130 which was the test car for the '64 changes and became Sherwood Egbert's car.

As far as restoring it completely...your money and your choice. It's your car so do what makes you happy.

[MikeValent]

Can you post photos? What color is the interior? Automatic transmission?

[Yeleanor]

Thank you for the responses.

But what might New Jersy Showcar stand for?

http://www.sagebrushstudebaker.com/tw_intrst.html

Is where I got any information from , this also stated that there were 655 64s made.

Where does one find true information from?

I would like to narrow things down a little better because I need to decide where to go from here.

I also have a 63 that is totally dismantled and is a lower number.

Wondering if I should just sell the 64 as is if it is just a basic 64 of no real importance.

[Gunslinger]

My own view is ALL Avanti's are of real importance. Some may have more significance than others, but all are examples of a very limited production automobile that is recognized by the Milestone Car Society as a genuine Milestone Car. I know that due to condition, accidents and economics some are better off parted out. That doesn't mean I have to like it, but another fact is we need donor cars to keep others on the road.

I also wouldn't characterize '64s as of no real importance as they're also examples of all the running change improvements made in the line since production began. In pure numbers, that can make them significant due to their relative rarity proportionately. I know many like the round headlight '63s better, but that's an aesthetic view.

The number I've seen most often is just over 800 true '64 Avanti's were built...that includes square headlight versions and some round headlight versions...I've seen numbers ranging from 30+ to about eighty round headlight cars that are true '64 model year production. There are also numerous '63s not sold and were simply titled as '64s when they did get sold. There were also a handful of prototypes given new serial numbers and sold as '64s also. An accurate set of numbers as to true production is hard to come by...if at all. Without looking at every build sheet for every Avanti built, and building a data base, we'll never know the true figures, and that doesn't take into account those '63s sold and titled as '64s by the dealers.

None of us can tell you whether to sell the '64. It's all a matter of what it's worth to you as it is or for potential sale. Factor into that what someone would be willing to pay you for it can make a difference. An R2 brings a premium...if you have a 4-speed transmission that's another bonus. Some people want a car already restored and want to jump in, turn the key and go. Others don't mind finishing the restoration. All that factors in.

[Yeleanor]

Hehe,

Well no disrespect, but can no one answer what New jersey Showcar stands for? ie. Paris Oregon, Chicago et all?

And I do understand all Avanti are considered rare in a sense, I always believed the 64s were more so because of the low numbers yet more collectors like the 63s 

I go back: I only have money enough to build 1, my choice is a '63 # R63-1573 or this #R-4968 '64

If neither has any relevance to any rarity other then an Avanti I will go with the 64 because it is further along and has some noted history. Whatever it is.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Yeleanor

[1963r2]

As the article suggests the car appears to have been prepared as a show car. I assume this means that greater detail/finish was taken in assembly of the vehicle as it was used for public display.

I have no reason to doubt this is the case and I'm sure the production order would back it up.

I would have thought this has some historical significance.

I would continue with the 64 and sell the 63 to me.

pb

Edited April 3, 2010 by 1963r2

[ernier]

Showcar status doesn't really change value, for Avantis anyway. It does mean you may have better fitting body panels and the original paint may have been color sanded and polished past the point the regular production cars would have been but it isn't a one-off or special say the way a COPO Camaro might be. Historically, it's another Avanti and show car status in this case adds more value for conversation than return on investment.

The R2 adds value over an R1 and if it was a 4 speed that's another plus. If the 63 is an R1 automatic and the 64 is an R2 the '64 will return more of your restoration dollars but doubtful it will return all of your money so don't go crazy. It seems 64 R2 Avantis peak out in the upper $20K range to maybe $30K for the nicest 4 speed, late production, thick seat, car.

Your 63 seems to be an early production car and it may be missing some of the details that later cars were equipped with like drip rail moldings, second cowl intake etc. If you plan to drive the car the '64 might be a little more comfy. Your 64 has most of the running changes except for the 'thick' seats but that's a bit of an illusion anyway as the thickenss came from a little more padding in the front and a filler panel in the rear giving the illusion of a thicker seat.

ErnieR

Edited April 3, 2010 by ernier

[Yeleanor]

Thanks

ErnieThat is basically what I was looking for.

I figured the cars were basic as my dad never mentioned otherwise.

The 63 is basic and I don't even know if it is a R1.

The 64 is what it is, supercharged with all the bells and whistles I believe except air. Not sure as both are in pieces.

I will have to get the original 4speed back into the chassis for the 64 because my dad wanted aotomatic, he took the 63 trans and switched it into the 64. Other then that all is normal to this point.

[Yeleanor]

Because some one asked.

Here are a couple pics for the 64

[ernier]

64 r2 4speed with some interesting history is the one to restore for sure and that 4 speed is worth its weight in gold so definitely swap it back in. No R2's came from the factory with air so you aren't missing anything that was available. All non-supercharged Avantis are R1's.

There weren't a lot of options available on either car. P/s, twin traction, A/C (R1), tilt wheel ( later cars and very rare ), am or am fm radio, seat belts, windshield washers, tinted glass and a choice of interior style on the very early cars and of course 3 speed, automatic or 4 speed transmissions. A lot of the little stuff like seat bealts, windshield washers and probably the radios could be installed by the dealer. If either car has an Am/FM save it and have it refurbished if it doesn't work because they are worth stupid money.

ErnieR

Thanks

ErnieThat is basically what I was looking for.

I figured the cars were basic as my dad never mentioned otherwise.

The 63 is basic and I don't even know if it is a R1.

The 64 is what it is, supercharged with all the bells and whistles I believe except air. Not sure as both are in pieces.

I will have to get the original 4speed back into the chassis for the 64 because my dad wanted aotomatic, he took the 63 trans and switched it into the 64. Other then that all is normal to this point.

[Yeleanor]

64 r2 4speed with some interesting history is the one to restore for sure and that 4 speed is worth its weight in gold so definitely swap it back in. No R2's came from the factory with air so you aren't missing anything that was available. All non-supercharged Avantis are R1's.

There weren't a lot of options available on either car. P/s, twin traction, A/C (R1), tilt wheel ( later cars and very rare ), am or am fm radio, seat belts, windshield washers, tinted glass and a choice of interior style on the very early cars and of course 3 speed, automatic or 4 speed transmissions. A lot of the little stuff like seat bealts, windshield washers and probably the radios could be installed by the dealer. If either car has an Am/FM save it and have it refurbished if it doesn't work because they are worth stupid money.

ErnieR

Yeah I know I have an AM radio for sure but no idea to which car. And since I was not directly involved with either, I am a mustang guy, I have no real idea what I have. I actuall have parts from 2 '63s, but only enough parts for 1 of the 63 with some left overs, My dad for instance had already sold various parts that were the 3rd of a part, like a carb, doors glass various other parts.

At least he did not sell any 64 parts. I think lol.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Yeleanor

[Yeleanor]

Here is a pic of the 63. Only enough gig space on site to have 1 pic.

[ernier]

Am I not seeing a nose on the '63? If so, the 64 is a no brainer. I haven't had a Mustang in a long time but I do have a 62 Meteor S-33 Once you are done assembling the '64 you can certainly recoup some costs on ebay with leftover parts. I can tell you that you should not sell windshield wiper arms and blades, power steering pieces, alternator, windshield wiper motor, power brake booster and radiator.

I might have missed something but generally those items bring good money but in my opinion they are more valuable as cores or back-ups. Over the years I've accumulated all of the above just to have so I can keep my car together while I send out the broken part for a rebuild. Just me but if you frequent Avanti parts on ebay you won't see them too often and when you do they are expensive but even moreso through a vendor.

ErnieR

[Yeleanor]

I have the nose and all but the interior for the 63. Just don't have the website space for any more pics. No idea why but it restricts me to 500m or whatever, that's 3 pics.

[Yeleanor]

Question I have also is :

The interior for the 64... Would this be man mase leather or real leather? Vinyl? I almost think it is leather? Could it have that?

Also I think my dad put Koni shocks in. Does that matter? Should I get original parts for things like that and exhaust or are modern parts considered ok?

The Supercharger is a Paxton I believe. Have the supercharged nameplat on a shelf so that is a for sure on supercharged.

Think I have another supercharged. Could the 63 have been a supercharged?

[Gunslinger]

The interior is vinyl...that's what Studebaker installed. If it's leather, it's been done by a previous owner. As far as the shocks, mufflers, etc., it all depends on how original and correct you want the car. If the Koni's are in good shape, why change them? Avanti's did have a supercharger option...a Paxton SN-60 to be precise. Photos would help to identify it as the proper supercharger. If your car came from the factory that way, you should also have "Supercharged" or "Supercharged Avanti" emblems on the front quarter panels between the tire openings and the front doors.

[ernier]

Aftermarket shocks are your only choice. Just paint them semi gloss black if you want the factory look. Don Simmons can supply factory correct exhaust in stainless. Go to Bob Johnstone's great web site for vendors and tons of info http://www.studebaker-info.org/

ErnieR