Did know that hogtroughs were soooooo unimportant......

[TMA62]

There is a green 1980 Avanti on Ebay right now:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=160960373521&globalID=EBAY-US

The seller describes the car to the bidders. He includes the following regarding the hogtroughs:

".... Ive talked at length with the gentelman who now owns Avanti about whether I should replace the "hog troughs". I was told there was absolutley no need to as the body will not sag or crack if they are rusty, which they are. It seems there is a myth about the hog throughs. they are not structural, they are NOT torque boxes as some like to call them. They are just stamped steel body fillers, according to Avanti their only purpose was to have a mounting point for the roll bar. So your choice if you want to replace them, this car has run without them for over 25 years without any sagging or cracks."

Is this oversimplifying it or what?? Sure, the body is not going to sag. The cross member frame will prevent that. But apparently those meaningless hogtroughs are more of an accessory than to provide torsional stability.

Edited January 21, 2013 by TMA62

[PackardV8]

Yeah, right!

jack vines

[kramerdad1]

hi, Im the one who posted the ad on ebay. Ive rebuilt old cars for over 30 years, Im mostly used to the torque boxes on 65 and up mustangs which are truley structural. When I looked as the "hog troughs" the first question I asked was these are just stamped sheet metal not even channeled or boxed , all they look like are body fillers, so how can they be structural? I called Dan at Nostagic Motors for the facts. With over 40 years experience he knows more then any hobbiest thinks they knows about these parts. His reply was simple, most people do not understand the function of the throughs, they are there for side impact protection (which can be replicated with welded tubing running out from the frame and along the body, rather then a 6K replacement) and for a place to mount the roll bar to, otherwise in a rollover the roll bar would go through the bottom of the car.

so, being new to avantis, who am I going to listen to? half-baked hobbiests who think these are "torque boxes" or the man who worked for studebaker and has 40 years experience?

the same is true in the mustang world, a myth is started and no one steps back and says , hey, that doesn't make any sense."

my car has no troughs, it is not sagging, the door open and close just fine.

to add fuel to the fire dan also told me most people are just as wrong about the rear cross member, its job is not strucural or to support the body, its there to protect people in the event of a side impasct ( to keep the rear from accordianing ) and from a rear impact.

so there you go.

[WayneC]

My opinion:

I believe the rear crossmember is there to support the spare tire, which otherwise might vibrate the fiberglass well it's sitting in (or the surrounding floor) enough to eventually break the fiberglass (through fatigue), or without that support the trunk floor may sag if it is loaded with luggage or whatever.

I'm not sure about the hog troughs, I don't know enough about how they are fastened (I've never replaced any), and I generally bow to Dan's expertise... but I suspect they may be there to add structural strength to the body.

In 63-67 Corvettes (coupes, especially), there is a stamped sheetmetal "birdcage" that acts as a dimensional stabilizer and strengthener to the fiberglass panels; the sheetmetal cage supports the dash and door hinges, runs around the windshield, doors, etc, and is welded together as a framework first, to which the fiberglass is bonded as the body is built-up in jigs. I've never seen an Avanti that's had all the fiberglass burned away, and any such metal "birdcage" (or "roll cage") structure pieces are not shown in the parts manual because they aren't considered field-replaceable parts. I know that on Corvettes, the birdcage is prone to serious rusting if the windshield seal has been leaking (usually at the base of the door hinge pillars where they meet the door sill frame mount area, and around the door hinge mounts, the base of the windshield frame, etc)... it is near impossible to find a used birdcage in serviceable condition, and even if one can be located, it is a prohibitive amount of work to replace large sections of birdcage, and then repair the fiberglass bonded to the birdcage; serious corrosion damage to the birdcage in multiple areas is considered fatal in most cases, requiring a salvaged donor body.

By the way, although I'm not positive, I don't think Dan Booth worked at Studebaker, which was based in South Bend IN. He's lived in SE Michigan at least since the early 70's when I first knew him (probably has all his life). He ran a small auto repair business back then (first with a partner, then on his own), personally owned Avantis, and was the go-to guy for Avanti repairs in the greater Detroit metro area. He later became a dealer, too, selling new and used Avanti's. In the mid-80s Kelly decided to stop supporting older ('84 and prior) Avanti's, and also decided to sell new Avanti's only through established US car major-brand dealerships (which meant Dan's Avanti dealership days were over). In financial trouble, Kelly also decided to sell off all his parts stock specific to Stude-chassis models (1984 and earlier)... Dan bought that parts inventory, and opened his current location of Nostalgic Motors in Wixom MI.

Edited February 4, 2013 by WayneC

[Avanti83]

hi, Im the one who posted the ad on ebay. Ive rebuilt old cars for over 30 years, Im mostly used to the torque boxes on 65 and up mustangs which are truley structural. When I looked as the "hog troughs" the first question I asked was these are just stamped sheet metal not even channeled or boxed , all they look like are body fillers, so how can they be structural? I called Dan at Nostagic Motors for the facts. With over 40 years experience he knows more then any hobbiest thinks they knows about these parts. His reply was simple, most people do not understand the function of the throughs, they are there for side impact protection (which can be replicated with welded tubing running out from the frame and along the body, rather then a 6K replacement) and for a place to mount the roll bar to, otherwise in a rollover the roll bar would go through the bottom of the car.

so, being new to avantis, who am I going to listen to? half-baked hobbiests who think these are "torque boxes" or the man who worked for studebaker and has 40 years experience?

the same is true in the mustang world, a myth is started and no one steps back and says , hey, that doesn't make any sense."

my car has no troughs, it is not sagging, the door open and close just fine.

to add fuel to the fire dan also told me most people are just as wrong about the rear cross member, its job is not strucural or to support the body, its there to protect people in the event of a side impasct ( to keep the rear from accordianing ) and from a rear impact.

so there you go.

KD

I have not worked for Avanti/Studebaker nor been in the business of repairing them but I have stayed at a Holiday Express and have rebuilt a couple of Avanti's.

If the rear cross member has only the function to support the rear tire area, Why did the entire body fall on the frame when I cut it out to replace it. It did so because the PO had installed 6" X 2" thin wall rectangular tubing to replace the hog troughs that had rusted out. I removed them to install OEM style hog troughs which left the rear crossmember as the only support holding the body off the frame other than the front mounts.

The hog troughs support the roll bar and are the mounting point for six of the frame to body mounts. The Avanti body does not set on the frame, as the mounts hold it about 3/4" above the frame. They also stiffen the rocker panel area as they are bonded to them.

I'm not here to argue but I do have enough experience with underpinnings of an Avanti and enough Avanti undercarriage smutz on me to be some what knowledgeable about those areas.

Let's be clear, The hog troughs are very important to the support of the Avanti body and roll bar to the frame. If your proposal is to replace those functions by some other method then all is good, as I can see that there could be several approaches that will work. I came up with a couple before I was offered an OEM set of hog troughs at a very affordable price.

I've dealt with Dan on a few occasions and find him extremely knowledgeable about all things Avanti. I'm assuming a communication issue here.

If you ever get to Bay City, Michigan let me know. I'll put the 83 or 74 on the hoist and be happy to point out the function of the hog troughs and what needs to be done to accomplish there function. There is no way that an Avanti will function as a driveable vehicle without the functions of the hog troughs or some form of replacement support.

And this is experience that you can take to the bank, Bob

[PackardV8]

Many years ago, at one of the international meets in South Bend, a Studebaker production engineer who helped build the Avanti was present. In discussion, we brought up several questions about "why did Studebaker do it that way?" One specific question was the infamous hog troughs. His answer, "The fiberglass body needed support in that area. We were behind schedule and something had to be there to reinforce the body and that was the quickest and cheapest design we could find. And no, we didn't consider how hard they'd be to replace and no one was using galvanized metal in those days either!"

OT, but there were several engine questions, such as why six front and rear bolts and nuts on the crankshaft. For those he had no answer and "The guy who would know is dead."

jack vines

[kramerdad1]

lets get serious about the troughs. I started to form this opinion after reading an article on replacing the troughs on this very web site, the author questioned the actual need of replacing the throughs, after all , these are just flat pieces of sheet metal, further do you think that anything that is POP RIVITED has stuctural integrity??? which is how the factory did it and how you install the replacement parts. do they pop rivet 747's together? would you drive across a bridge that was pop-rivited together? there is a bonding strip that holds the body to the frame which I admit is important, but "torque boxes? no way!. the lark frame is plenty strong compared to the wiggly sheet metal "one-piece" bodies they build now-a-days. mustangs need a huge amount strengthening and has created a huge aftermarket so you dont twist your musting into a pretzel, a complaint Ive never heard about with the lark frame. as for the cross member keeping the spare tire in, perhaps that is true, if you look at the rear of the frame I believe what dan said is correct, its to keep the car from accordining as there is nothing to stop another car from cutting right through the avanti body. dan states he worked for studebaker and is still a studebaker dealer. I have to defer to his knowledge and my own common sense and experience not myth.

[kramerdad1]

To KD, forgot to state the following, I believe you are more then correct that an alternate method of stiffening and protecting the rockers is ok, purists and someone doing a concours restoration will not consider an alternative but since I do not intend to do this all I want is the protection some side rails would provide. since talking with dan I realize that there is no side impact protection unless there is something more then just fiberglass between you and a car that is side impacting you. Truth is I refuse to spend 6K when there is a much easier and practical way to provide this protection, installing tubing attached to the frame and then running the length of the rocker panels. I to was going to do the trough replacement because "you have to replace them." but, I do not believe this to be a fact anymore. I think if you provide side impact protection by installing a frame running the length of the rockers panels ( think tubular pick up running boards mounted between the frame and body) you've done the same thing for about $400.00 not $6,000.00

[PackardV8]

I think if you provide side impact protection by installing a frame running the length of the rockers panels ( think tubular pick up running boards mounted between the frame and body) you've done the same thing for about $400.00 not $6,000.00

FWIW, that same Studebaker engineer also said, "Money was so tight at that time, if there was a easier, cheaper way to do the hog troughs, we'd have done it. They weren't putting a nickel into the cars that didn't have to be there. The interior designers wanted seat back adjusters, but that would have added something like $3 to the cost and the bean counters wouldn't approve it."

Your opinions may vary.

jack vines

[Avanti83]

Good Luck and be sure to post pictures.

Bob