Lowering Springs?? Headliner Trouble

[Francie1965]

Hello,

I just purchased a 1974 Avanti II and there are a few things that I need advice on.

The first is - I want to lower my car and was advised by a friend that one can purchase specially made springs in order to have the right effect. Has anyone out there purchased special "lowering" springs?

The second is - the headliner behind the rollbar has come out and is hanging down. The cardboard inside is hard as a rock and warped. Has anyone steamed the cardboard and reapplied to ceiling, or actually put a new headliner in their car??

The third is - the fabric seal around the sunroof is cracked and sunbaked. Does anyone know where to get a replacement seal?

Thanks!

Francie

[jmenacker]

Hello,

I just purchased a 1974 Avanti II and there are a few things that I need advice on.

The first is - I want to lower my car and was advised by a friend that one can purchase specially made springs in order to have the right effect. Has anyone out there purchased special "lowering" springs?

The second is - the headliner behind the rollbar has come out and is hanging down. The cardboard inside is hard as a rock and warped. Has anyone steamed the cardboard and reapplied to ceiling, or actually put a new headliner in their car??

The third is - the fabric seal around the sunroof is cracked and sunbaked. Does anyone know where to get a replacement seal?

Thanks!

Francie

Congrats on a tasteful purchase and welcome to the board.

We had headliner problems from the roll bar forward. A local auto interior restoration shop fixed it up beautifully, along with front seats, door panels and carpet for a couple of paychecks. The shop that did the work has a lot of experience and even they had a difficult time with the headliner. Unless you are very handy with upholstery work, headliners are best left to professionals.

Betty and Dan Booth at Nostalgic Motorcars have replacement moonroof seal kits. There is some cutting of the rear seal required. Dan walked me through it via telephone with excellent results. Nostalgic Motorcars

Best regards,

Joe M in WV

[Gunslinger]

What kind of effect or goal do you have in mind by "lowering" the car. Do you want to lower the chassis to be closer to the ground or lower the appearance of the body? They're not the same thing.

To lower the body orientation it's a matter of removing rubber insulators between the body and frame...not really recommended. They're in place to maintain the body being level and insulate it from excessive vibration other than the obvious reason of attaching the body to the frame.

To lower the chassis you can take the car to a qualified spring shop. They can either install somewhat shorter height front coil springs and the same with the rear leaf springs. A pitfall of lowering the front springs is the possibility or even probablility of the front tires hitting the body in a turn or from a severe bounce.

If you're after restoring the original Studebaker Avanti "rake" to the car, that's a body orientation issue...it has nothing to do with the suspension.

[SBCA96]

I have also wondered about steaming the headliner and reversing the 40+

years of warpage. Its a tempting thing to try, since the other option is to

buy the replacement fiberglass inserts from Studebaker International. My

front and rear sections have drooped down. I removed the headliner on

the front so that it stopped rubbing my head while driving! I honestly do

feel that something along those lines could work ... just how to do it!

Sounds like your question about lowering has been answered. If you want

the front lowered like a Studebaker Avanti, steel spacers must be removed

from between the body and frame ... this must be done correctly of will be

the cause of cracks being formed. Once the body is lowered your hood is

going to hit the air cleaner, and result in a permamently open hood. The

GM engine is higher than the Stude. You COULD swap in an LT1 engine &

convert the car to a F.I. fuel system. The LT1 has a LOW intake. The last

issue is the filler panels glued into the front wheel openings. If you look up

inside the fender, you will see the seam.

On my dads 69 Avanti, we cut the front springs, and I made templates to

cut the fenders out. The car looks Studebaker, BUT it has VERY limited

suspension travel which leads to a poor ride. I think that the body can be

lowered a certain amount (not all the way to Stude) and the suspension

can be lowered to create a "Stude" appearance. Keep in mind that only

the front was changed, the back is "Stude" height.

I know I read about how to do the body lowering on Bob Johnstones web

site, but I can not find it now. Here is sunroof stuff :

http://www.studebaker-info.org/rjtechx3.html#Sunroof

Tom

[Francie1965]

Thanks for all of the information! We were just trying to lower it a bit, not with the "Stude rake", as we understand the difficulties that would place on the engine. My car just looks like it sits too high, but we are playing with different kinds of tires, wheels and displacement right now that might help to make it appear to sit lower. The tires on the car right now are slightly larger than stock and the wheels are black, so they appear bulbous and oversized. My husband is really hot to try and make it lower, but sounds like it might not be worth the trouble. I will share this info with him. Thanks! Laurel

[william]

Hi Laure,

I lowered my 79' Avanti, but it took a lot of work and money. My car is lower then the 63' Avanti. both in front and rear and over all height. This was achieved by having a machine shop make new king pins that lowered the front end. The nice thing about this was it did not effect the suspension specs. or geometery of the spring. I then had to cut the front fenders from molds made from my fathers 63 R-2.

The rear end is very easy to lower using lowering blocks and longer U bolts.

With this said, I would not use just any machine shop. King pins are a major concern for saftey. As with anything involving suspension once you alter one thing it affects another. This would include the wheel turn stops and the tie rods. So all this must be addressed.

The car looks amazing with a "hunkered down stance" I also run 16" boyd Coddington wheels. These wheels really fill out the wheel openings.

Hang in there, it can be done. It took alot of research and work to get the stance I wanted, but it was worth all the work.

I'll have my car at the National Meet in South Bend if you want to take a look.

Best wishes,

William

[profaqualung]

I realize that I am getting to this topic a little late, but I am going to throw my 2 cents in anyway. I am glad that I had not read all the previous answers before I 'lowered' my 1970 - as it might have scared me into not doing what I did. But on the other hand, it worked and I have had NO handling, clearance, bottoming out, fender rubbing problems at all, except those caused by what Mississippi tries to pass off as highways [most other states would call them 'gravel drive-ways']. But my 69 427 Vette with side pipes has the same problem on the same roads.

What I did, was cut one coil out of each of the front springs - put on 15 X 7 Magnum 500 rims with 215R65 Bridgestone Potenzas. Checked the alignment, and then have put over 6,000 miles in the last 3 months. Maybe not the most technically correct way to do it, but it has worked for me, and looks great [or as a couple of people have said "very predatory"].

Good Luck

[Gunslinger]

Prof. Aqualung...

A bit off topic...but we both have '70 Avanti's and '69 427 Vettes! Just goes to show great minds think alike.

[william]

Lowering an Avanti is subjective to how low you want to go.

Yes, it can be done by cutting springs or heating them. As long as your able to figure out an alignment.

But after a certain point, without changing the fenders the tires will rub and crack.

I guess the question is "how low do you want to go" I would have to measure, but I think I went around 2- 2 1/2 inches. Worked out really good and gave the car a great stance. Once again subjective.

[geojerry]

My 78 Avanti II with its GM 305 engine and Edelbrock manifold/4 barrell carb would also look alot better if I lowered the front about 2 in. The front rake looks bad to me. Doing that by replacing the front springs or cutting 1 coil from the middle will cause the air cleaner to hit the top of the hood. There is no clearance. Maybe someone has done this and cutout a hood scoop or purchased an Avanati hood with a scoop already there. Any issues with this and where can I find a fiberglass hood scoop that will look ok on my orig Avanti hood. Hope it won't cause cracks in the fiberglass hood.

Here is my engine photo:

[SBCA96]

I think there is a misunderstanding about what effect different forms of

lowering a car will have on the end result. There are two separate ways

of lowering an Avanti and you have them confused as to which effects

which area.

Cutting the springs (which I should add is NEVER be done with a torch,

due to the heat changing the temper of the spring, which can cause the

spring to fail - always use a cut off wheel), buying lowering springs from

a source such as Eaton, or heating the springs (NEVER DO THIS!!) will

only compress the distance between the lower control arm and the frame

which will decrease the ride height. The problems this will cause are an

change in camber, less suspension travel, frame/exhaust contacting the

ground and poor ride. Think of this as having four very heavy guys on

the front bumper, the result is the whole body/frame assembly being a

bit lower to the ground.

Removing body spacers is the technique that will cause the air cleaner

to hit the hood like you mention. With an Avanti II, this is actually the

BEST way to lower the car, if you can make adjustments to the intake.

The suspension stays in its stock form, making alignments normal, and

the frame/exhaust isnt closer to the ground. By removing the spacers

you basically lower the body onto the frame, which, since the engine is

bolted to the frame, raises the engine in relation to the body.

Because the above isnt always an option, perhaps the most realistic way

to lower an Avanti II is the combination of the two, remove a few of the

body spacers in the front, and get a modest lowering spring from Eaton.

Tom

My 78 Avanti II ...... would also look alot better if I lowered the front about 2 in. ..... Doing that by replacing the front springs or cutting 1 coil from the middle will cause the air cleaner to hit the top of the hood.

[Gunslinger]

Jerry...

I'm pretty clueless on lowering an Avanti, but as far as the air cleaner not having clearance, unless you're determined to retain the air cleaner you have, there are many drop base air cleaners on the market. One of them may do what you want without resorting to a hood bulge.

On my '70 which is still being reassembled, I know I'm going to have air cleaner issues when it get to that point. It looks that the air cleaner I prefer likely won't clear, so I've been looking at options...some I'm OK with, some I may simply have to live with if it comes to that.

I'm hoping a drop base air cleaner will work off the throttle body of the EFI. If not, my next choice will be the Holley Hi Tek air cleaner, which is kind of unusual looking to my eyes...it reminds me of Princess Leia's hair in Start Wars, with two air filter elements...one on either side of the throttle body. It's not inexpensive either, but may be my best way to go. I'm guessing my last choice will be to use a carburetor bonnet, like for a supercharger and use a tapered cone air filter attached to it. It will get worked out...just a matter of which way is best.

You have options. I'd hate to see you cut your hood for a bulge or scoop.

[SBCA96]

I forgot to expand on what Gunslinger hit on, yes, if you drop the body on

the frame by removing body shims, then a new air cleaner will be needed.

This is the one I used on my Hawk, and from your engine picture you also

have a thick carb gasket, you could try a thin one and gain another 1/4".

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc...ss_chrome.shtml

Another alternative (and if I had an Avanti II) would be to match the Stude

body spacers and install an LT1 engine and 6 speed manual trans. The LT1

is a very low intake and should clear the Avanti hood with ease.

Tom

[william]

Geojerry,

Not only is the air cleaner going to be a problem but the fan blade will be the next problem. I lowered my car as low as I could on the frame removing as many shims as possible. I then went to a drop base air cleaner and an electric fan for clearance. I retained the old fan shrould to maintain the orginal look inside the engine bay.

The fan blade will hit the shroud if you remove too many shims up front.

William

[geojerry]

This is all great info but I see too many potential problems with a stock Avanti II. Will stick with the current Rake. Here is my long term concept and I know you PURIST will hate this.

" Convert my current stock looking Avanti II to a modern looking SUPERSTREET with a killer looking front-end Custom fiberglass Body kit, side kit and rear kit. Car lowered all around with 17 in wheels and mags, Candy Apple Red custom paint with Racing Stripes, all new interior and dash with modern guages and most impotratnt, a complete new modern up-to-date front-end suspension/ steering and 4 wheel disc brakes."

I doubt if I can find a shop to take on this project. Never seen one in any of the custom car mags. It could be a first and gain national attention. Maybe Chip Foose would like to try this on an Avanti in his shop.

Jerry

[Gunslinger]

Jerry...

The speed shop that installed the crate engine and a 700R4 in my '70 has done a rack and pinion conversion to an Avanti in the past. I don't know what their experience was or how well it turned out. They are very careful about what they do and won't do anything that's unsafe or not properly engineered.

There are 4-wheel disc brake kits on the market...Turner and Steeltech come to mind. I don't know how either kit handles the parking brake for the rear, though. My feeling for a shop to do that kind of work would be to allow them to obtain all the parts...that way THEY have to warranty everything, not just their labor. If you provide the parts, some places simply won't do it, or if they do and there's a defect problem, you'll be paying labor several times before it's done right. This way may be somewhat more expensive, but unless you have the tools, facility and knowledge to do it yourself, I believe it's the better way to go. There's also no reason why a shop can't order the entire kit from Turner or Steeltech and add on a reasonable profit...it does take a lot of potential headaches off your shoulders.

As far as any fan issues if you lower the body, if you go with electric fans you can dispense with the fan shroud altogether. Get a fan kit that contains a built in shroud that covers the entire radiator core. One potential issue with electric fans (or too many electrical additions) is by increasing the current draw you might need to upgrade to a higher output alternator, which can require heavier guage wiring, which can require a custom wiring harness, etc. You get the point. Rarely does changing one item not require additional changes to safely accomodate it. I'm not saying this will happen, just it's something to keep in mind when proposing changes. I believe the stock electrical system should be able to handle up to a 100 amp alternator without the need for modifications, but you should check with a custom shop to make sure of that.

Regarding body modifications, you'll need to find a really good custom body shop. I think air dams would look nice on the front of an Avanti...something like the Blake Avanti that raced at Daytona back in the '80s. You would have to watch out for speed bumps and curbs...it might be really easy to damage.

There's lots of things you can do to change the dash without actually modifying the dash itself. In my '70 I had new inlays made up for the guage cluster, console and a/c bezel. There are lots of choices to pick from...brushed aluminum, a variety of wood grains and colors, several colors in carbon fiber, etc. There are also numerous brands and styles of guages available...both analog and digital readouts. You can transfor the dash without actually changing the dash pad and structure at all. If you remove the air conditioing, you can mount guages or a DVD screen in that center bezel. Then again...you're in Florida so I would think you'd want to keep the a/c!

Sounds like you're going to have a killer car when it's done.

Bruce

[SBCA96]

Well, he DID say "MODERN up-to-date", which leaves out the early 70's tech

that Turner/Steeltech use for brakes . My setup is held up at the moment

because my CNC shop has suddenly gone silent.....

I have considered a few minor body changes, but yours sound much more

extreme than I was thinking. I plan on making LED front turn signals, and

updated headlights to fit the stock openings on my '63. I have the 17 inch

wheels, thought about racing stripes on the black paint, but I havent seen

an Avanti yet with stripes I like. I think the asymetrical hood bump messes

up the dual stripes. I have the modern seats, gauge upgrade will just be a

new set of SWs. I am looking into ways of improving on the Stude suspen.,

so I can cut costs, and I already have the world class four wheel discs. The

T56 6 speed install is eventually going to happen, quick steering arms, large

sway bar set, I kinda like those aluminum gas doors, etc. So far no bites to

get it into 'Popular Hot Rodding' or 'Car Craft'. Though I did get the 'Avanti

Magazine cover - its a start. Will be nice to get it back out of the garage, its

been laid up since last year from the power steering failure.

My next article in Avanti Magazine will be the Camaro seat install.

Tom

There are 4-wheel disc brake kits on the market...Turner and Steeltech come to mind.

[irv83]

Well, he DID say "MODERN up-to-date", which leaves out the early 70's tech

that Turner/Steeltech use for brakes . My setup is held up at the moment

because my CNC shop has suddenly gone silent.....

I have considered a few minor body changes, but yours sound much more

extreme than I was thinking. I plan on making LED front turn signals, and

updated headlights to fit the stock openings on my '63. I have the 17 inch

wheels, thought about racing stripes on the black paint, but I havent seen

an Avanti yet with stripes I like. I think the asymetrical hood bump messes

up the dual stripes. I have the modern seats, gauge upgrade will just be a

new set of SWs. I am looking into ways of improving on the Stude suspen.,

so I can cut costs, and I already have the world class four wheel discs. The

T56 6 speed install is eventually going to happen, quick steering arms, large

sway bar set, I kinda like those aluminum gas doors, etc. So far no bites to

get it into 'Popular Hot Rodding' or 'Car Craft'. Though I did get the 'Avanti

Magazine cover - its a start. Will be nice to get it back out of the garage, its

been laid up since last year from the power steering failure.

My next article in Avanti Magazine will be the Camaro seat install.

Tom

Hi Tom,

What's the back spacing on your wheels ? I want to install Roto RB (Panasport look-a-likes) 17 x 7 wheels with Avon Tech 500 225 x 55 x 17 tires on my '82 with a "built" 383 sbc and 700R4. What shocks would you recomend?

Thanks

irv83

'82 3492

The revs per mile are similar to 215 / 70 / 15s

[SBCA96]

The wheels I chose are a narrowed version of the 03/04 Mustang Cobra rim.

The factory wheel is a 9 inch wide but these have an inch taken off the inside

which results in a 17 x 8 with a 5.02 back spacing. My Cobra brake setup uses

the rotor as a spacer giving me 4.75 backspacing, and I had a spacer made

of .100 thk to give a little more room - it STILL touches on one side, so I will

adjust the tierods to compensate. If you want to lower your Avanti in the

future, I would recommend putting an LT1 FI engine in, which would allow you

to lower the body on the frame. You can get a wrecked 4th gen Camaro or a

Firebird for $2000, and use the engine and trans (4L60E or T56).

Shocks are another story I havent got to yet .. I plan on using Bilstein shocks

on all corners, 2nd Gen Camaro shocks are almost bolt in for the front, which

are the same as 94-96 Impala SS. The rear shock is tricky. I want to use a

stock shock, so my plan is to modifiy the car to accept something unmodified.

Hope that helps.

Tom

Hi Tom,

What's the back spacing on your wheels ? I want to install Roto RB (Panasport look-a-likes) 17 x 7 wheels with Avon Tech 500 225 x 55 x 17 tires on my '82 with a "built" 383 sbc and 700R4. What shocks would you recomend?

[GAWen]

Here is a picture (if it came thru) of my 1971 with ALL of the body shims removed. The wheels are American Racing 15x7 mounting P235/60/15. The wheel openings are flaired one inch to allow clearance. Underhood clearance is non existance.