New member, new (to me) Avanti

[Thomas]

A few weeks ago, I bought a Red '63 Avanti R2 four speed from a listing in the AOAI classifieds. I looked at it one weekend, then about a week later Doug and I came to an agreeable deal. I really wanted a '63 because I like the round headlights, this one also has power windows and aftermarket wire wheels (TruSpoke?). Also included were a couple of boxes of miscelaneous extra parts (fuel pump, LED tail lights, carb bonnet, etc.), and a couple of boxes of documentation and maybe 30 years of Avanti Magazine. Original window sticker and dealer paperwork and all the books and manuals too.

Old cars can be interesting when you start really looking them over. This one has mismatched cylinder heads: one is a proper 67 cc combustion chamber size, the other is a '58-'60 58 cc size. Hmmm...

I drove it home (77 miles) just fine, but there were a few issues to repair before hitting the road again. The power steering pump mounting studs were broken off flush at the engine block, and a motor mount and mount bracket were broken. All of that was more work than it should have been - I'm finding that Studebaker's are a full size car wrapped in a 9/10'ths scale body.

I did manage to fix those things in time to drive out to Palm Springs on Monday (110 miles each way). I met a good group of people, and went to the seminars that day, and the reception at Don Hedgepeth's house. I really wish that I could have gone back for the Wednesday car show, but business was calling.

My plans are to go through and fix all the mechanical and functional aspects of the car, maybe later in the year I will strip it all down and smooth out all the body panels and give it a proper paint job (it has a low to fair cruise night paint and body appearance) . I'll also likely add a T5 five speed trans in place of the T10 four speed trans. I am a high performance nut, but mostly I'll build this one for fun cruising - maybe with some of the aluminum heads etc. I'm thinking that if I went nuts with all the aluminum parts available that I could take close to 200 lbs weight off the front of the car - which would make things more fun for cornering and acceleration. One of my other old cars is an unlikely El Camino with a monster pump gas 496 that has laid down 564 rear wheel hp (close to 700 at the flywheel) and 562 rear wheel torque. That one is a genuine street car (overdrive for the freeway) that has run high 10 second 125 mph 1/4 mile times in full street trim.

I am my own mechanic, I enjoy fixing old cars for a hobby. I'm pretty good and have a nice home shop, but I'm also very slow to get things done.

One of the questions I have is where to source a new body tag with the proper embossed numbers. Some previous owner got confused and stamped a body plate with a matching sequence to the vin plate. The vin plate is intact on the frame of the car, it was merely covered with many years of grime.

Thomas

[SBCA96]

Welcome to the site! Glad you found us. I am up in SB county. Sounds like you are

on your way to a fun project. These are very servicable cars, so you should be fine.

At least you got the T-10, I have the base Avanti, so mine got a T-86 truck 3 spd. ick!

I have a T-56 waiting in the garage for a kit that (hopefully) will be made by Fairborn

Studebaker (if you are interested I suggest you Email them NOW), because the car is

SO annoying to drive with the gear spread, slow shifting, gear whine, and non sychro

first gear! If I had the T-10 it would be a VAST improvement. The T56 will add two

OD's ... which will be nice for the $3.30 a gallon we are paying up here now!

Tom

[IndyJimW]

Welcome! A 63' Round headlight, R2 with a 4-speed. Ahhh................I think I hate you already.

Jim Wood

[Thomas]

Tom, I'll have to look up Fairborn Studebaker to see what they have. Considering the money that Doug had spent having this T-10 rebuilt (some new gears, synchros, bearings, etc.) I might have expected this trans to be quieter and slicker shifting - but it is not. Which brings up one of the sad facts of classic car ownership for the non mechanical owner: it is hard to find a shop that gives you your money's worth. Doug had thousands of dollars in receipts, but a fair amount of the work was really just indifferent in quality. The kluge method of dealing with the broken off power steering pump stud was almost comical, yet he paid someone money to "repair" it. How the broken motor mount was "missed" defies explanation, because I'm positive that Doug would have paid for any necessary repairs that the shop advised.

Yes, the Avanti is very servicable. Its just that I can already see that I need to add some stubby wrenches to my tool chest - there are some suprising tight spots in the engine compartment.

Jim, I hear ya buddy. Doug had mentioned that he looked at Avantis for 2-1/2 years before finding this one - and for me this was the only Avanti that I called on and went to look at. Only because I find such things interesting, I am wondering if there is any sort of break down on the actual numbers of: R2, 4 speed, etc. I looked all over the internet and didn't find any data like that. All I know is that my engine is RS2087, which should make it the 1,087th R2 installation for the '63 model year.

Thomas

[IndyJimW]

Which brings up one of the sad facts of classic car ownership for the non mechanical owner: it is hard to find a shop that gives you your money's worth.

Being a shop owner I can tell you this is a topic that can get ugly real fast on both sides.

Only because I find such things interesting, I am wondering if there is any sort of break down on the actual numbers of: R2, 4 speed, etc. I looked all over the internet and didn't find any data like that. All I know is that my engine is RS2087, which should make it the 1,087th R2 installation for the '63 model year.

The automotive and truck industry has been using the VIN for over a decade now to track options on vehicles to make parts ordering easiler and its still hit and miss. I can't imagine trying to get information on cars with records before computers AND with the myths and legends that come with a model like an Avanti. I know that build sheets are available but from what I have seen it just shows how many different combinations there were available.

Jim

[Thomas]

Jim, I think I should have worded that differently - rather than being a blanket indictment, I just meant that it can be hard for the non-mechanical owner to know when they are being well served. There are shops I trust and use when I am pressed for time.

I do believe that I have seen where a person can obtain the factory build information on their specific Avanti for a fee from one of the vendors. That has to mean that someone has all of the specific build data - but it may not be on any sort of data file that allows for easy retrieval of the answers to my questions of how many with this option or that option. More than anything else I just find that kind of trivia interesting.

Thomas

[SBCA96]

Tom, I'll have to look up Fairborn Studebaker to see what they have.

http://www.fairbornstudebaker.com/

They dont list it yet ... and I havent heard an update in a month or so. I will shoot him

an Email this weekend and see whats up. He was going to find one to take dimensions

off, and see about making a special flywheel. Just send him an email and tell him that

you heard from me that they are looking into it, and are very interested.

Which brings up one of the sad facts of classic car ownership for the non mechanical owner: it is hard to find a shop that gives you your money's worth.

Being a mechanically inclined owner who has worked on cars since he was about 11

years old, and who just designed his own disc brake setup for the Avanti, I can say

that I completely agree. I am currently dealing with a transmission shop that rebuilt

my wifes 4L60E trans in her Camaro 2 years ago, and their answer to "why wont it

shift to 3rd" is "rebuild it". I ask whats wrong with it, they say "needs a rebuild". Its

got 39k on it, and its not slipping, its just not shifting to 3rd. I found what might be

the problem, and they give me a song and dance about checking that, and then the

tech says "nope ... we didnt check that" and they had the thing apart! ITs not just

the old cars ... its mechanics in general, and know that pisses off the ones that ARE

actually honest .. but the dishonest ones are the ones that get burned in your mind.

Needless to say I had the car towed here, and I will check it out myself!

Yes, the Avanti is very servicable. Its just that I can already see that I need to add some stubby wrenches to my tool chest - there are some suprising tight spots in the engine compartment.

Sorry, but as a person who has changed the spark plugs in a 4th Gen Camaro Z28,

I can honestly say you havent seen a tight engine compartment. The EGR valve

needs a special wrench, and the rear half of the engine is under the dash!

Regardless, some things can seem a little overwelming, and its a learning situation.

The more work you do on the car yourself, the more you will understand why some

mechanics seem overpriced, and will also add to the relief in finding that honest one!

Tom

[IndyJimW]

Jim, I think I should have worded that differently - rather than being a blanket indictment, I just meant that it can be hard for the non-mechanical owner to know when they are being well served. There are shops I trust and use when I am pressed for time.

Your wording was fine and I would agree with you. Just as there are many types of shops, I have found there are many types of customers. On a Chevy site I visit a shop was called dishonest because they charged $50.00 a hour flat rate, alot of people jumped in on that shop. I charge $70.00 per hour and work mostly on fleets. Most fleets understand business and what it costs, they wouldn't use me if I was overcharging them.

Like I said, its a topic that can get real ugly, real fast.

Jim

[Thomas]

Tom, I emailed Fairborn, and they emailed back with a set of instructions on how someone had converted a Ford Motorsport T-5 into their Studebaker. I may just seek out a Studebaker Truck bellhousing (which I understand has a larger mounting face), buy a new trans, then do my own conversion. One of the things I would like is a modern clutch setup rather than the Stude pieces.

My solution on the late model LT1/LS1 F-body cars is to install a tubular K member. Once this is done, along with a few thoughtful parts relocations, the amount of working space increases dramatically. All modern cars have a lot more equipment under hood. Requires creativity for the home shop. For engine removals instead of using the engine hoist to lift the engine out, I use it to lift the front of the car up after disconnecting the engine subframe - then slide the engine out the side/front. The 4L60E can be sereviced by the do it yourselfer with just a few specialty tools.

Jim, you are so right about there being many different kinds of shops out there. I would say the first tipoff that a person might want to look elsewhere is when the shop makes comments expressing concern about the time to work on a classic - like that they prefer newer cars etc. The cool shops are the ones that ask if you can be flexible on the time the car is in the shop, because they want you to know that extra time has to be allowed for mail order parts - these are the shops that have worked on classics.

Thomas

[jeffgrohs]

Thomas, it was great talking with you on Monday. Sorry you couldn't get back out on Wednesday - I posted some pix on the aoai website - links on the homepage.

I didn't notice, did Doug keep the original shifter or switch to a hurst? Not sure if you had a chance to talk to Dave Thibeault ( usually typed as "t-bow"). He's a vendor from Massachusetts that might carry a few items you'd be interested in: hurst shifter adapted for an Avanti T-10, aluminum heads for a stude 289, other aluminum goodies to lighten the front. Lionel Stone, down in your area, also carries some speed parts for stude engines, though I've heard his fit and finish may not be as good as t-bow's. check the classified section of a recent Avanti magazine for their contact info.

There's another avanti-only chat at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/avanti/ if you haven't already found it.

Jeff

[Thomas]

Jeff, I see that I even made it into a pic or two - thanks for being such a shutterbug. I enjoyed looking over all the pix of what I didn't get to see. One of the guys I hoped to meet was Karl Sparks - somehow I found him as I was researching Avanti's online before my purchase and he was nice enough to answer some of my questions.

I haven't really checked out what shifter is on the car - but it definitely is not a short throw shifter. Somewhere in the past the shifter plate below the console trim plate was cut out to accomodate the wider throws. In some ways it really is a moot point since I plan on a T-5 trans conversion.

I'll have to check out t-bow's stuff. I had found Lionel Stone's stuff online, I left a message on his voicemail - but no reply so far. I can't believe there are two people making these kinds of alloy parts, seems to me that the market for such items would barely keep one vendor busy. I have no illusions of cheap and easy Stude power, but I would like to keep the car all Stude appearing but at the same time enhance the handling and braking etc.

Thanks for the Yahoo Avanti link, I joined up!

Thomas

[SBCA96]

Tom, I emailed Fairborn, and they emailed back with a set of instructions on how someone had converted a Ford Motorsport T-5 into their Studebaker.

Make sure you check the torque ratings on those, I was amazed at how weak the T-5 was!

I talked to a guy a few years ago that had installed a T-bird T-5 into a Lark, his setup was

pretty simple and straight forward. I already have the T-56 in the garage, if Fairborn is not

going to come through, then once I get to that point - I will make my own.

My solution on the late model LT1/LS1 F-body cars is to install a tubular K member.

Thats a lot more work then I want to do just to make spark plugs easier. I have found the

"sweet spot" to get my arm in there, the only drawback is being able to read the exhaust

manifold casting number off my forearm!

Tom

[IndyJimW]

Thats a lot more work then I want to do just to make spark plugs easier. I have found the

"sweet spot" to get my arm in there, the only drawback is being able to read the exhaust

manifold casting number off my forearm!

Tom

You need a set of the new Snap-On swivel arms!

Jim

[Thomas]

Tom, The T-5 in the Motorsport World Class version is rated for 325 ft lbs torque, which should be fine as I have no real drag racing plans for my Avanti (I have other cars for that). I may consider a different 5 or 6 speed trans, as long as the shifter can be reasonably close to where it would be for the T-10. The non-WC T-5 versions are too weak to be considered, I'm pretty sure the T-Bird never got the WC version.

Thomas