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Posts posted by attrite1

  1. Longtime since I've been here and even looked at all the R3/4 data. Comparing old data to some of the latest I had, it seems as though the cutoff region was after B101. My B92 was gone thru by Myers and I have the photograghs showing all R3 specific parts present & accounted for. If I can recall some conversations with Nimesh he was rebuilding B103 at about the same time I was having B92 done. Can't find my specific notes on the phone chat but it seems he was actually casting up a couple of pairs of new R3 iron heads and I seem to recall some talk of issues trying to get custom rods made up. He sent me pics of the B103 rebuild(not  closeups) but the heads were certainly the right chamber shape and had larger valves. If he or his brother are still around they could confirm. B101 appears to be one of Nels R3 Avanti's and it was one I took reference pics of since it was a Granatelli Conversion car. Externally it looked correct, don't know about the internals or if he's gotten around to that one yet. Again he'd know best. In the listings I'm looking at, most of the R3's after those two were loose engines or listed as short blocks or having R2 heads. Interestingly B109 was listed as having R5 dished pistons(more accurately a step down).

    After all these years we still don't have a firm grip on the actual hard number of R3's or R4's, but its certainly not a number above 100. At least a verifiable one. How many are left? again its just a guess but I'd go with 50% as my top number. Just too many open lines on the lists that have never been filled in to make me lean towards a higher number, that and the age of the data.

  2. Finally, USMags/MHT of Rancho Dominguez, CA is producing a reproduction of our Classic Halibrand Magnesium wheel. I'm trying to get some info as to whether a group of Studebaker collectors can get a group price, but discussions are slow and initially they insist that we deal with our local "sales shop". I'm OK with that, I'm just not sure whether a local shop can service people across the country IF we can get a discounted price. The young man I was speaking with, was not even aware of the historical nature of this design, I had to send him a picture of my wheels to insure they could reproduce the polished rim & match the color of the magnesium center section. I've requested drawings and color chips for sign-off. I'll keep following up as time permits, but these wheels are pretty darn close. here is a link to their website:


    The wheel is ID'd as "Offy" U412.

  3. Were getting slightly off point again, the comment I made relating to documentation was strictly relating to the finer points of restoration that are being left open to personal interpetation or experience, ie; at a rather large show I had a judge question me as to why the Supercharger was Orange and not Black. I explained to him that in 1963 the Superchargers were Orange and not until '64 did they become black, or as "told from spoken records" they could have become black after a factory warranty rebuild. It seems the judge had at one time owned a '64 Avanti and he recalled that"his" Supercharger was Black, therfore my car was not correct...................I believe my explanation satisfied him, but the lack of any formal documentation here leads to "one's memories" being repeated enough times that they become fact or at least believable. Another item that comes up is the "color"(again) of what the Steering Box should be.........is it "metal" or the half metal/half rustoleum paint? 90% of the people here probably don't care because it doesn't affect the driving of their cars. I'm in that other camp where the 'hunt' for evidence of 'what was' is where I derive my satisfaction and I had the best time restoring my Avanti discovering these little 'gems'. The last item was/is really tough...........what does everyone here believe? Anyone have pics of an original '63?

  4. Alright...........your issue initially is to define the audience............The Hagerty(?) article I believe showed the Design stars of the Class of 1963, The Corvette Stingray, Stude Avanti & Buick Riviera. The Stingray has been a runaway success, both in the sales price and volume of restorations. The Avanti and Riviera...........not so much. Is your definition of success based on Price or Volume? Mine is Price, solely price. Initial Volumes we have no control over, each model only has what's been delivered. The Stingray had 21K total delivered with 10K Coupe's being the biggest winner. The Avanti over 2 years only had 4600 delivered while Buick Riviera had some 40K sales. So the Avanti is the "rarest" example of the three, but it hasn't been reflected in pricing.

    When showing my car, I typically find myself being placed in the American Luxury 1947-69 Group. Here I wind up competing against T-Birds, Cadillac Eldorado's, Riviera's, Chrysler 300's, some Buicks. I try not to be placed in with the Corvette's or Jags........the Avanti according to Egbert's vision was to be America's GT car. I don't think it could compete against the Aston Martin DB5, the Ferrari 330GT or the Lambo 350GT, but those are the cars Egbert would have refered to as true GT cars of the day.

    So do you want to see a competition against it's intended competition or against what it's placed against in Concour's shows?

  5. Yes, they do need to be marketed, I think we're all agreed on that. But do we use as the hook? Rarity, design, performance? We have these on our side, at least historically. I really do believe this has to start a grass roots effort, something that has to come from us. This is the start, this is the beginning, the nascence of the rebirth of the Avanti in the public's imagination. We're going to need some help along the way, but we are the root!

    I've used ALL 3! and it covers a wider swath of the Collector market. The higher end collector will likely need to understand more about Loewy and his design history to pump up his interest, while performance will be a tough sell because of a limited racing history.

    The Studebaker Avanti is already a rare Model, the Design has been recognized by most in the automotive world as one of the most elegant and perhaps Loewy's Best work(although I do like the '53 too), performance has to be tied into Granatelli's achievements at Bonneville so people will listen to that point, of course it doesn't hurt to mention several road tests in '63 showed that the Avanti had a faster 1/4mi time than the '64 GTO and perhaps even showing some YouTube clips of Avanti's beating Mopar 440 6-packs @ PSMCD wouldn't hurt. I've just been able to download the "Bonneville Record Breaker" to my laptop and I intend to play it on my laptop while the car is on display at the next Show I'm at!. Also I found a company in LA that RENTS 20' enclosed car haulers so I don't even have to buy a car hauler now........that save's a few bucks..........now taking the car to shows all over The People's Republic of California is going to be open to me.

    While the car is never going to be a CCCA Classic, it will start to develope the image that we are able to put forward(providing we all agree on what the key areas to highlight) if we show them enough times. You have to put the image in front of new viewers enough for them to accept it. I imagine that once people see and understand what the car is the first few will go after the Avanti II cars, because they're typically a little bit more affordable AND they have that Chevy drivetrain that most are used to and can easily get parts for...............the more adventureous will go after the R2's, then the R1's. I don't see (m)ANY current R3 owner's walking away from their prizes. The majority of those are in good hands with full restorations planned or underway and they will be the price leaders as several recent sales have shown. I was really hoping that #5642 would break 100K as that would finally break that glass ceiling and attract some attention.

    The Rarity numbers are favorable for the Avanti, over it's 2 year production run only some 4650 were made vs 21K '63 Stingrays(10K split window coupe's) or 40K '63 Buick Rivieras. I don't know exactly the remaining numbers are but I imagine we can come up with a close approximation via the Registry numbers, same with R1 vs R2's, I know I've seen those numbers somewhere here or on SDC. Perhaps the museum has them instantly available.

    I'm working on getting some automotive Posters on the Avanti made with my "sales Script" printed over a faint B/W photo of an Avanti @ Bonneville so more people can read about what I'm trying to display(and it'll save my voice).

    Obviously this year being the 50th Anniversary of the design would have been the ideal year to put a 1000 Avanti's on Display, but it's a little late now. Frankly I'm very surprised that more shows didn't use a "50 Year Celebration of 1963 Automotive Design" concept. Someone(Hagerty?, Hemmings?) put out a mag earlier this year showing the Stingray, Avanti & Riviera on the cover, would've been a great show with just those 3 Models.

  6. That's why build sheets are so important.

    Maybe the best we can do is use the SDC judging rule book as a guide...it's well established and accepted. Why reinvent the wheel?

    What I would not want to see is the AOAI turn into a group where arguments break out about judging...what's original or correct. Tempers flaring does nothing to help an organization. I'm not saying this would happen but there is the potential.

    Let's just love and enjoy our cars...we are open enough to allow purists and those who enjoy modifying their cars for whatever reason...safety...personal preference...for lacks of original parts...whatever reasons you can think of.

    Yes, the build sheets are a very good source and helped me identify a car that had been previously amateurly restored, likely from whatever parts were available. My wife's Avanti also a '63 had been "renewed" by Newman/Altman in ~ 1983 replacing the 289/4-speed with a 350 Chevy/Turbo 400/flanged Dana 44 and the interior was an '83 vintage Avanti II complete with Recarro's. Today that car could be only be described as a RestoRod with an LS motor and AiRide Suspension, so I play in both pools too!

    It was nice to find out under all that old paint and amateur resto job resided exactly the car/color combo I had always wanted. What gave me 'Ojida' was the nuts & bolts part of the restoration. It's sad to still read the SDC site about people trying to find where certain decals belong or if they even did in the first place! I'm not one who likes to initiate controversy, but we need to find a way to separate opinions from fact and if they are not aligned, Judging Standards should at least be brought in-line with the same standards used in Nationally recognized Concour's Shows to move the Marque forward and achieve acceptance within the Collector Community,............... that's the most I would expect to achieve. If tempers flare over that, then .......there's not much hope within this community and it WILL be time to move on separately.

  7. This won't work without objectives and a plan that gives direction to our interest and action. We don't even have real names or email addresses.

    A way to start is to develop a simple Web site that is the basis for an organization. I can help with content but not design. If someone knows benchmark sites as models that would help. This forum can not serve our communicaton needs except to help identify a group of like-minded workers. Who can develop the site?

    I am willing to participate in a small working group to assist in outlining a program in this area and given a "small working group", I'm not sure a separate site is a necessity. I'd like to think that AOAI should be considered as the focal point for what we attempt as they have been the 'basis' for maintaining the Avanti name & interest since 1965. There'a a lot of info here and in the back issues of Avanti Mag, just not in a friendly format. Perhaps just a separate header in the Forum? Of course that will likely require some level of 'approval' from the ruling body. Being denied that, then perhaps going with the alternate plan.

    My reasons for assisting in this is the difficultly I found in gaining rudimentary knowledge in what an original Avanti was! It seems the early years of AOAI was focused not so much on preservation and documentation as it was in finding ways to modify and keep your Avanti on the road. So, Number 1 on my list is: The lack of any "Formal Documentation" of what an original Avanti was and what a restored Avanti should be built to! When you go to "restore" a Corvette, you go to NCRS, buy the "Bible" for the year of car and simply follow the recipe book. With my Avanti, there were several cross country trips to visit owners of particular models who had cars that they were willing to share with me, allowing me photographs, Q&A time and just kicking back and discussing options. There was no Known Standard. Now, I'm not sure that it's even possible to 'document' an Avanti given Egbert's constant evolution design thought. Still it would have been nice to have had something more than just the Manual and people's opinion's to refer to and future collector's will want to have a reference manual that they can "goto".

    The idea of building a Marque's interest is a study of time and time works or moves through cycles. I believe we are getting past the "Muscle Car" Fad again and will slowly turn back to a Design led interest. Just look back in time and see how the Ferarri market reacted in it's price swings. This comes from a few discussions I've had with different type's of collector's. We've seen the initial price spikes in muscle cars and the resulting return to earth. The Great cars get great money, the others are no longer all commanding 6 figure numbers but are still getting valued quite a bit higher than the Avanti. The other major influencing factor is the capital flow of funds into the US from Europe & Japan. Money is seeking a "safer"(relatively) and higher rate of return, hence our stock is climbing while Europe's and Japan's are not. As capital accumulates in an economy it seeks value and when soft investments become overpriced and the fear of inflation starts running through the markets, money migrates to harder assets like undervalued collectibles. In order to attract that Capital, we've got to present an investment that shows some rarity, value, an aesthetic nature and is desirable or envious(read subtley sexy). Loewy had some GREAT Quotes on just those items, they nned to be "Marketed".

    I can be reach via email thru the personal messenger on this site.

  8. I've been operating under the opinion that Marketing the Marque should start with the owners of Avanti's, after all we acquired our cars because of the love(?) or enjoyment/pride/whatever we get when driving/showing the cars. There are already dozens of great restorations out there, but getting them into Concour's level shows has been difficult because they are not fully accepted within that circuit(clic). When shows like LaJolla took a chance at mine, I jumped at the opportunity and when iconic Concours Events like Palos Verdes decides to "Honor" Loewy's Avanti, I hope that every LA area car winds up being invited and shows up. In the several shows I entered I had to take some exception with the Class it was placed in, though. The Avanti, in my opinion does not belong in the Sports Car Group with Corvettes or Jags and I choose to be judged with the Closed Production cars from 49-68 or whatever year they use for a cut-off.

    I would hope that AOAI could simply put together a Roster/Portfolio of cars it gets from it's membership that would best represent the Avanti name and provide that list to Concour's Show Promoters during the planning season so that the car can at least be allowed in whatever Class or Special Event Class they will promote. The past several years, these Concours Shows didn't even provide a Class that the Avanti could be shown in!....and perhaps that's because they don't know or believe that they're available. I don't mind showing mine, even though these shows can get a bit steep on their entry fees, my concern is on getting the car there and back in the same condition. The locations are great and give me an opportunity to have some quality time with my wife at a resort that we would not normally choose(or even be allowed in).

  9. Well the BEST thing to do to get name recognition and to place the car in front of "Collector's" who determine price, is to get your car restored, or if it's a great survivor get it out onto the Concour's Circuit. I've been trying to do just that the past few years.

    pics of the car and the engine are on this site.


    I restored 63RQ3848 in 2009 to it's original build sheet(except for the engine) and it was initially shown at the 2009 Arts Center of Pasadena Show, representing Lowey & Kellogg(an Arts Center Graduate). Later it was shown at the 2009 Dana Point Concours and in 2010 at the LaJolla Concours where it won it's Class. After that show win I became afraid to drive the car(I drove it to the show in Lajolla some 15 miles from home). The car became a weekend driver around our Gated Community. This past year, I corrected a few mistakes to the original restoration job and am hoping to get invited to the Palos Verdes Concours Show in September. They are having a Tribute to the 50th Anniversary of the Avanti! I was hoping for a showing at Dana Point this year too, but I'm having some minor health issues that I need to get out of the way before my vacation. I'm now looking for a Trailer to haul the car because I WON"T drive the car in LA traffic. I intend to show the car at several area Concour's Show over the next year BEFORE I decide to start any serious local driving. The stories I hear and see every day about idiot drivers especially those w/o insurance really keep me from doing any daily driving. Also that R3 gets around 8MPG and at $4/Gal Plus Octane boost & lead additive, it's an expensive drive. Wish I had access to race gas again, but Kalifornia's laws have shut that door.

    I fully expect the prices of Avanti's to continue climbing but we do need to get more great examples out to the shows. Once the Collector Societies SEE great cars out there, they will start to accumulate as they become available. I have a "Script" about the Loewy Design and Granatelli Engine Performance I've put together and shamelessly recite it to whoever comes up to the car. I've also lost my voice at LaJolla so I'm thinking about making a handout. These shows are 6hrs long and you get a lot of questions............

    As someone here has pointed out prior.............this all about MARKETING.........we've already got a GREAT product, we just need to get it out in front of the viewing and puchasing public.

  10. You got me...I was thinking about the lug wrench. My apologies.

    The jack handle will fit in the spare tire well with a 6.70-15 tire on a stock 15"x5" rim. The owners manual shows it but isn't clear on whether the jack handle goes under the tire or on top. It appears to show both the scissors jack and the handle on top, but as I said, it's not really clear as it's a line drawing, not a photograph.

    If you have a reproduction 6.70-15 tire, some have shown to be somewhat larger than the original tire supplied with the car. If that's the case, it could be the cause of the problem.

    The repro's fit..............IF their not inflated :lol:

  11. Went through this on my restoration a few years back, there was a split decision, but I obtained some NOS General Electric Headlights. I believe the secondary choice was Sylvania. You might want to check the "search" function on the SDC Forum, I believe there was a discussion there. I also checked with a few original owners of Avanti's and also got a split decision on the GE/Sylvania choice.......it may have been whatever's available for the lowest cost at the time.

  12. I don't know how many others have been plagued with this problem, but the 4spd repro boots have an 3 1/8" dia. while the fiberglass hole in the console is about 3.5" which tends to allow the shifter boot to move around during shifting and after several shifts into 3rd or reverse, the boot tends to slip down into the trans-tunnel. After thinking about disassembling the console top, removing the upholstery and fiber-glassing in the hole to a 3 1/8" diameter, I found that a Quad Ring placed in the rubber boots locating slot perfectly takes up all the slack while still allowing the boot to still fit and be retained by the upper bellows tightly. Problem solved............no more disappearing shift boot! and without re-glassing or resorting to messy silicone or urethane adhesives.

    COST: a package of 10 is available from McMaster-Carr for $7.80(you only need one), but Quad Rings are rather a rare stock part at HD or ACE. BTW a Quad Ring is essentially 4 smaller o-rings that are molded together in a 4 leaf clover shape(visualize 88 molded together at the center). part # 90025K412. If your a CASO, I still have 8 left that I can part with............

  13. I would like to get my 63 fawn/dyed white dashboard reconditioned. Where is the best place to send this. Thanks. John

    I'll second the "Just Dashes" suggestion. I used them a couple of years ago on my '63 and they did an absolutely great job, also cleaned up my visors. BUT, they are expensive............. also, never heard IF SI got their new vendor up and running on these dash covers.

    I have pics somewhere if you'd like to see. Probably on a thumb drive in the glove compartment.

  14. I remember reading (either here or in the magazine) of someone discovering a rusted ws post, but they never explained what they did to fix it.

    The entire windshield 'support' is shown as a part # in the Stude manual (btw the top part is fiberglass and the remainder is steel).

    Does anyone know if this part is available? Cafaro used Kevlar to make it for the 1990 models (remember the picture of him with the sledge hammer).

    I'll post picture when I can figure out how to do it (rusted right through on the bottom).


    That could have been one of my posts. One of my Avanti's had had its windshield replaced and was installed improperly(no dum dum was used). Both 'A' pillars were rotted out and required complete removal. New ones were fashioned from 4 separate pieces that were bent on a brake and welded together. We then epoxy primed them and rewelded them into place. It was expensive because of all the hand fab work. I've never seen replacement parts anywhere, If only I'd known that Jeff had that frame. I do have some pictures of the installed repair, but none of all the fab work that went into making them.

  15. I'd like to replace my 63 original bucket seats with something that has a higher back that is safer and more comfortable. The trick is finding something that looks right instead of really out of place. If anyone had customized or modified and original Stude using a seat from anything else that is readily available and is not too expensive (i.e. $1000's for Ricardo) please post your suggestions and pics if you have some.


    Actually I have a pair of Recaro's in my wife's Avanti that will be available very shortly. They are a newer design and are black AND there is a rear seat that is upholstered is a very similar pattern also available. I can get pictures to you. send me your email address. Of course shipping from California is not cheap, but I'm not going to be piggish about the price........I'd prefer to see them get put to good use.

    Chuck S.

  16. I'd like to invite all Avanti owners, but especially 63-64 owners to add their radiator shroud type and serial number to the poll on the SDC website located here:


    There's been quite a bit of discussion as to whether the horsecollar was a factory installed change. Although no factory documentation has been found yet, there's a lot of secondary evidence. We still need as much data as we can get so please post your info.



  17. Actually, I believe #9 was one of the Gold Avanti's, a back-up car in '62, but run in '63 for the 337 set of records. I'm hoping to see the car prior to it's trip up North. I'm sitting on #90 now(the other Gold Avanti) and trying to accumulate parts for it's eventual restoration. It's the car run by Bill Burke with the 229ci R3 engine.

  18. 6. Did the original exhaust system have a midship cross-over pipe under the transmission tail housing? Mine does...and it makes the exhaust pipes very dificult to lower for gasket replacement?

    I believe that this is the original exhaust "equalizer" configuration. My '63 also had a crossover "H" pipe arrangement in the section of the exhaust pipe just ahead of the mufflers. It's been a lot of years, but I can remember cussing that arrangement as it was extremely difficult to assemble and align. Later replacement parts deleted the "H" and had straight duals. I don't have my '63 Avanti parts manual any more. Perhaps someone who has one could check to see if the "H" pipe is shown.

    Yes, it does........I believe the "H" pipe came with the "Quietone Muffler" option, whereas the straight duals had the cannister shaped glass-packs. Strangely enough the R3's came with the "H" pipe, at least, the 3 that I've seen. Typically that crossover balance pipe adds some power in the mid-rpm range, so it's not all that bad an idea.

  19. Recently purchased a 63 Avanti which has a Chrysler 440 CID engine installed in it. This motor has been in it since 1971, to fit the motor the Stude steering was removed and a small box with centerlink installed to make it fit the donor steering adjustment sleeves were welded to the Studebaker adjustment sleeves. I'm loathe to drive the car with this Mickey Mouse steering. Having searched the net a GM J-car Rack & Pinion has been fitted to some Avantis. I am curious to here from anyone who has done such a changeover and if it was a benefit. Is the bumpsteer worse or the same. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


    Well, we've done it and the Bumpsteer was measured at nil(<1/8") by the shop who fabbed the bracketry.(believed they used an ART gauge?) They're primarily a Custom Dune Buggy shop so they had a good understanding of suspension systems. The biggest problem we faced was the centerlink tie-in under an LS2 motor. Had to chop that oilpan considerably. As for driving impressions, well, that's still a TBD, but I'm probably wthin a month or so. Of course all the other changes will likely coverup any single alteration. Other changes? Active Airbag suspension, four-link rear, that LS2 unloads about 200lbs off the front end, so I'm expecting alot.

  20. Hello,

    This is my first visit and my first message here. I am a french new owner of a 1963 R2.

    First, I must say I am sorry for my bad english writting and my poor technical knowledge.

    I bought my car to its (almost) first owner (he bought it to the Paris Studebaker dealer, in february 1965) and everything is 46 years old...

    My mechanic is starting to work on steering, drive lines, suspensions and I need to decide what kind of new shock absorbers to buy.

    I am not a drag racer but I don't plan to use my R2 just for cruising ! I've already bought HD sway bars, Turner brakes kits (front & rear) and will probably order

    HD coil springs. What about HD gas shocks ? Are they not too much firm (even at low speed) or are they progressive enough to give a good confort

    sensation for ladies transportation ? Can anyone give any recommendation on products and vendors ?

    Thanks !



    Here is a website that has several .pdf files that will answer most of your questions.


    If you'd like more info, I suggest to go to:


    Join the forum and search for shocks or replacement shocks, there's quite a bit of knowledge in that group.

    Good Luck!

  21. Awhile back I posted a query about carpet and it led to some interesting discoveries about the colors of "salt & pepper" carpets in various colors of Avantis.

    To make a long story short, I've decided to stick with black, but part of my original query remains, namely which supplier has good carpet (I don't know if they all get their from the same supplier or whether one is better quality or more authentic than another.

    The usual suspects Historic, Phantom, S-I sell carpet sets.

    Any one have personal experience or recommendations?

    Phantom has done my complete interior and it is of quite good quality and I am very satisfied. I went with the full black carpeting as that was standard with the Elk Interior..........they also have the Salt & Pepper available, but it is not the exact same percentage of white to black. I don't think anyone has the original correct carpet anymore. We have the seats recovered at this point, but nothing is installed yet(car is still at painters). They were the most expensive of all the vendors but most people I've talked to prior to choosing Phantom feel they are the most authentic. Hope this helped.........Oh, one additional thing..........Phantom does not typically stock interiors, they are built on order.......mine took about 3 months to complete.

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