r5duecento
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Posts posted by r5duecento
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Yes, one of the red cars was the prototype EX2942 which set the 29 records and later was modified to become the Due Cento.
The red car you saw at the Avanti II factory was the other red car which later became the #8 car. It was sold by Granatelli to Ray Cash who traded it in on a new Avanti II.
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There were films made as evidenced in the photo at Bonneville in Car Life magazine, December 1963, in the article titled "Salt-Seasoned for '64". Note the guy in the picture with the large movie camera on his shoulder while the Due Cento is on the salt.
John Hora and I have been trying to find these films for years to no avail. Maybe someday they will be discovered from wherever they are hiding.
Dick Bennett
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The R5 engine from the Due Cento never threw a rod, either at Bonneville or on the dyno. The block was put into a customers Avanti by Joe Granatelli, who removed the fuel injection unit and replaced it with dual 4bbl carbs,and later removed the engine as the customer was not happy with it. What happened after that is cloudy. It is believed it was disassembled as the customer complained that it ran too rough for the street. IF the block was ever used again, nobody knows. There is a strong possibility that it was used to assemble the last R3 known to be built for the engine that George Krem purchased from Granatelli from parts and pieces on the shelf.
The engine that Greg Cone used to build his R5 clone is absolutely not the block from the R5. Greg does however have some of the original pieces from the R5 which consists of the cog pulleys, the left blower mount and the sheet metal intake manifolds and tubing. He has built a beautiful tribute R5 engine with the original parts mentioned, but let's not put out more false information, heaven knows there is enough out there already.
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Any suggestions on the best source for a color as close to original as possible? On the question of clear coat, my friend and restorer can reduce the gloss somewhat. I assume that is a good idea?
Try House of Color in California. They carry just about anything and the last time I was on their site, they listed all of the Avanti colors. You can find them through google search.
Clear coat does give much more shine than the original. The amount of shine desired is a matter of preference. I prefer the process that your restorer can do to lessen the shine to try to match the original finish as much as possible. Others like as much shine as possible. Your car, your choice.
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That's very interesting!....And on a side note, the paperwork that came with my own '83 Avanti 'everyday driver' says it left the factory painted Ford 'Rangoon Red'.........I didn't care for that color, and it's now painted '83 Mopar 'Glacier White'.
I don't know how it looked on your car, but it is Kick Ass on the Due Cento!
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The Due Cento had red lens in the backup light position which operated as the taillight, stop light and turn signal since the taillights were dummy lights made of aluminum and painted red to simulate taillights as it was the prototype.
The car was run with and without the lens in place. Earlier runs in and later runs out. The purpose was to relieve pressure. There are also larger holes cut into the inside of the trunk lid to allow more air to pass through on my car.
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The Due Cento was painted red as the prototype, but was not production Avanti red. It was a little darker than the production red. When it was modified into the Due Cento by the Granatelli's, it was repainted Ford Ragoon red.
The graphics were white gold leaf.
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Jaguar E Type
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To; r5duecento......Since no one else has asked,...I guess i will!!.....Do you think that there is any chance of your car, the Due Cento, and Greg Cone's R5 'display' engine ever being 'united'??...I'd sure like to attend THAT wedding!!!
No. I do not wish to do any joint ventures on the car. The original EX engine will be installed in the car which set the 29 land speed records so that it can be driven. At some point in time, I may install some pieces if the car could be driven if either Greg will some day part with the original pieces or as an alternative I have them reproduced.
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Also, these care were NOT Avantis. They were a study to consider the infulence of the Avanti design on the other models.
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When you get into the prototypes related to the Avanti, you are entering the Twilight Zone. First of all, the last 5 prototypes (Serial numbers EX2944 - EX2948) were all scheduled to be assigned production numbers and sold to the public. These cars if they had been built by General Motors would not have been called Prototypes, but rather would have been called Pilot cars. To add to the confusion, serial numbers were not always assigned with consecutive numbers, case in point, the two cars now in the museum which were considered for production studies on the regular Studebaker line with Avanti influence were assigned serial numbers EX2932 and EX2933 and these cars were produced after the Avanti prototypes. Even after reviewing the documentation obtained by John Hull from the factory records, it is very cloudy. When I bought the Due Cento in 1968, I had no idea it was a prototype until I picked up the car. It is all hand laid fiberglass, as all of the prototypes were, but this car has evidence in the fiberglass that it was done over a wooden buck as you can see the imprint of wood grain and the engineers scribe lines. The dash is only a mockup, having no upholstery and the glove box location is only scribed on the dash with no operating glove box. The tail lights are flat pieces of aluminum with painted on taillights. The rear bumper is different. The interior door handles are standard Studebaker units, almost all of the hardware and interior pieces are different, etc.,etc., etc. In the number sequence, EX2942 would be the fourth number assigned, but there was an article printed that the three cars with earlier serial numbers were loaned to the Magazine testers and were returned so damaged that they could not be used or at least Studebaker didn't want them seen in that condition, so they were destroyed. Since Studebaker had Andy Granatelli on board and wanted to attract the youth with a performance image, the "original" mockup car had an engine installed and was pulled into service and sent to Paxton Products. In conversations with Bill Dredge (Public Relations), Bob Andrews (Designer) and Andy Granatelli, all three told me that EX2942 which was sent to Paxton and set the 29 land speed records at Bonneville was the "original" prototype. I did later receive a letter from Bill Dredge in answer to some other questions on the car and in it he stated that it was the original Avanti prototype.
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I'd agree with this info, unless perhaps, as you say, one of the very early cars was retrofitted with a 160 speedo after it left the factory. It would be somewhat interesting to determine exactly which WAS the first Avanti to leave Studebaker fitted with a 160 speedometer?
Yes, that would be interesting to know.
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The sign in the photo reads "The R5 engine from the Due Cento Bonneville Avanti" which is incorrect. The engine is a clone and is not the engine from the Due Cento, however the left hand blower bracket, cogged pulleys and induction sheet metal is from the R5. These pieces were removed from the engine when it was pulled after the runs and they were replaced by an R4 manifold with the blowers run to each carb and installed for a time in another Avanti. The short block, magneto, exhaust manifolds and bendix fuel injection unit are not original to the R5. The Bendix fuel injection unit that was used on the R5 was borrowed from the Indy Novi and was returned to the Indy car after the Bonneville runs. It is currently on the Indy car in the Indy museum. Kudos tp Greg Cone for putting together this great display so that eveyone could see what the R5 looked like!
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Brad is correct in that the 160 mph speedometer was not added until later production cars. My car 631771, which I bought new, has the original speedometer which is a 140 mph unit and the car is an R2. Lew Schucart's car also has a 140 speedo and I have seen many other early R2 cars with 140 speedos and never saw an early car with a 160 speedo unless it was changed after it left the factory. All of the Bonneville Avantis were equipped with a 140mph speedometer when they were received at Paxton.
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The early R3 299 cubic inch engines used a cast iron manifold and standard Avanti heads which were ported and polished, as the R3 head was not yet designed for the 1962 runs. The Avanti EX2942 featured in "Bonneville Record Breaker" which set the 29 land speed records has this setup. This information is from Andy and son, Vince Granatelli.
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I have a color coded wiring schematic for the whole car, including the gauges. Send me a PM with your email and I can scan it in and send it to you later this evening.
Gunslinger,
Any chance of getting a copy of the wiring diagram that is color coded. That sure would make things alot easier that going back and forth between the two pages in the shop manual. My email is rabennett3@hotmail.com.
Thanks,
Dick
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Just another opinion. As the others say, there has been numerous articles written on this subject along with many opinions. To add mine, the factory called for straight weight oil. My experience is that 30W works the best. When I used 10W-30W, I had a noticeable drop in oil pressure. I would suggest that if you use multi-viscous oil that you use the heavier oil such as 15W-40W. 10W-30W is too light. I don't care what they claim, no oil can have 10W cold and 30W hot as this is a compromise. Also you can save some money by using STP or Lucas Oil additive. They both claim that they contain sufficient zinc. ZDDP certainly contains the zinc, but why spend more money if it is not necessary. Also, too much zinc can also be a problem. I have used STP for many years and have not had any problems. Ted Harbit uses Lucas without problems even during racing.
More food for thought. Hope this helps.
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I am in the process of renewing the appearance of the engine bay on my '63 R2 and have a few questions.
1. What is the correct engine color?
2. Was the original body paint lacquer or enamel? If it was lacquer, I will have to take extra precautions to keep the modern paint from bubbling the old.
3. Is the original power steering pump top bare metal or painted black? Mine is bare.
4. Where is a good hiding place for the chrysler ignition module? Any reason not to put it in the area where the A/C blower would be on a R1?
5. I would like a recommendation on how to best freshen up the finish on the non-painted items like the harness clips, plug wire track framework and hood latches?
6. Did the original exhaust system have a midship cross-over pipe under the transmission tail housing? Mine does...and it makes the exhaust pipes very dificult to lower for gasket replacement?
7. What is the original pos. and neg. battery cable colors?
8. Can I get the oil pan off with the engine in the car? It has a slight wet spot, a small dent and would be easier to paint when removed.
So far I have removed the radiator, coolant tank, cylinder heads, freeze plugs and everything off of the front of the engine in order to de-crud the cooling system. I am very glad that I did.....there was sediment 3/4" deep in the low circulation areas. Anyway at this stage it is obviously "prime time" to make her look showroom under the hood!
Any answers. tips or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks from Jim
I purchased my 63 R2 Avanti new and agree with the responses you have received; however, mine had the crossover pipe which does give a little more power and the supercharger was black. The car is serial number 63R1771.
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I noticed the PA plate on your drawing. Any idea of the date your father sold the car and in what area of PA it was located. I purchased a 63 gold R1 in the Pittsburgh (Greensburg) area around 1966 and another 63 gold R1 in Philadelphia in 1968. I have the serial numbers of these cars in the event it fits in the time frame and area.
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Hello,
Just joined the forum! Stumbled across this site a while back while researching Avanti's for an upcoming (at the time) art piece.
This is my father's former 1963 Avanti R1, number unknown to me. He bought it in either '64 or '65, when still pretty new. Had it for many years, but sold it before I was around and has been kicking himself ever since. Every now and again, I see a II out there, but been a few years since the last sighting.
Anyway, I'm a professional artist, mainly doing commissioned art pieces of cars or motorcycle road racing. I do amature sport bike road racing myself, and got back into art after a few years off and started doing race pieces or classic car art. My Father kept asking me to do a piece of his Avanti, but I couldn't seem to fit it in between commissioned pieces. Finally was able to do it, recently finished, and going to give it to him for his 76th birthday next week. Just got it framed this evening.
The media is prismacolor pencil, and sized 14 x 17. Lots of time on this one, approximately 100-120 hours I'd say from start to finish.
Also, if anyone is interested, I will have limited run prints available soon, small poster size ~18 x 24 or so.
Please give feedback, just want to make sure I got all the details plugged before I give it to him next week. Thanks for looking!
Darrell
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Dick,
I was just looking thru all my old Avanti literature and saw your articles on the R5 back in the early 70's issue. Glad to hear you still have the car. I don't think I have anything that you don't already have but I am interested in pictures you said you have. Was the R5 as raced red? I seem to recall that Greg Cone of Virginia had put together a number of the engine parts. Do you have the video of the late 63 Bonneville runs that the R5 first raced at? I thing there was an 8 MM film of that event, with the other Studes also. It may have nbeen called 'Chasing the Wind" Good luck with your project and post some pictures if you get a chance.
Somehow I missed your reply. Thank you for replying. Sorry I am so long in getting back to you.
Yes the car was painted red when modified to the R5 Due Cento. I know Greg Cone and he does have some of the induction parts. I do not have any of the films that were taken in 1963 when the car ran as the R5 although I know several were taken, but I have not been able to locate anything on them. Hopefully somebody has something and will contact me. I do of course have the 62 film The Bonneville Record Breaker, which is the same car before it was modified to the R5 Due Cento, although most of the film is a dubbed in Avanti. I also have a copy of "Chasing the Wind" which has several shots of the Avantis.
Thanks for your interest and response.
Dick Bennett rabennett3@hotmail.com
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I understand the R-5 engine in the Due Cento was disassembled and its parts are unknown. I've never seen anything to the contrary of that.
I believe the car still exists and is owned by someone...who I don't know. After this many years it's probably been through a succession of owners so who knows what it looks like now compared to its appearance at Bonneville. I haven't seen anything which identifies the VIN of the Due Cento.
The car is presently owned by me, Richard Bennett, Irwin, Pa.. It was sold to Bill Burke of Peterson Publishing I believe in 1966 or 1967, who was a Bonneville veteran. He ran another Avanti for many years, starting with a Studebaker engine and followed by many other engine combinations and set several Land Speed Records. Bill purchased the Due Cento from Andy Granatelli and ran the car with non Studebaker engines in 1967 and 1968. I purchased the car from him in 1968 and am presently in the process of a ground up restoration. Fortunately, Bill did not do too much damage to the car, however he did cut the firewall out of it and repaint the car orange. It has been stripped to the bare fiberglass and will be redone exactly as it originally was. I also received all of the aerodynamic pieces with the car. The serial number of the Due Cento is EX2942 as it was the prototype Avanti build by the Engineering Department before the Avanti went into production. It has many unique features such as hand laid cloth seen on the underside since it was the first one made from a mold taken from the clay, fake dash, fake taillights and many more unusual features. The car as it is seen in "The Bonneville Record Holder" can be identified as the car not having any names, emblems or identification on the body (most of the scenes are of a production Avanti dubbed in for the promotional film - note production identification and lack of rollbar). This is the car in it's original form as run in 1962 when it set 29 speed records before being modified into the Due Cento for the 1963 runs when the #9 Avanti set the record. The "real deal" is shown in several shots, some of which are the shots with the timing officials as they turn their heads and you hear the loud wine of the Supercharger; at the end where Andy is photographed with the car and the beautiful shot at the extreme end where the car is shown in a misty shot screaming down the 'long black line'!
I have several pictures and magazine articles of the car at Bonneville, but am constantly searching for more items to assure that the car is done accurately. Some magazine pictures show many photographers, so there must be more stuff out there. Hopefully they have not all been destroyed. If anyone has anything, I would really appreciate hearing from you. The one thing that I really need and don't have is a picture of the top of the front fenders to see how and where the gold leaf stripe terminates on the windshield side. If anyone has any pictures, films or additional information, I would appreciate hearing from you. My e-mail address is rabennett3@hotmail.com and phone number is 724-864-5205.
Hope to have the Due Cento at an AOAI meet soon so that all may enjoy all the History!
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I am in the process of restoring the Due Cento Granatelli Avanti. Although I have alot of factory information and a few pictures and magazine articles, I would like to know if anyone has any pictures of this car. These may be something that I do not have and would greatly help to make sure the car is done accurately. I believe I have all of the paint and lettering information except for the gold leaf stripe on the top of the fenders. My pictures and magazine articles do not show how it terminates on the end toward the windshield. If anyone has anything, it would be very helpful. Thanks, Dick Bennett
Trivia!...Avantis At Bonneville
in Avanti Trivia
Posted
mfg,
You are basically correct in your statement. All three Avantis were at the 1962 run, but the prototype EX2942 set all 29 records. The gold car was the backup which became the #9 car in the 1963 runs, as you stated, and it set all of the records that year. The red car in 1962 became the #8 car in 1963 and was the backup car for #9, but was not needed as #9 ran with no problems. As you stated, the prototype was converted to the Due Cento for 1963.