James T
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Posts posted by James T
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The power steering control valve on my '77 is leaking. The fluid steadily drips out of the end cap even while the car is sitting still. About a 1/4 cup in a few days time. I installed new seals on the spool valve a couple of years ago and while that seemed to reduce the leak for some time, it's now back to it's full flow. I inspected the spool valve closely, and it did not seem damaged or corroded to me. I did not find any foreign material in the control valve, and it seemed smooth inside the housing bore so I did not hone the housing when replacing the seals. Have only driven a couple thousand miles at most since replacing those seals having followed the kit directions to a T. The car only has 58K miles on it, and has always been garaged. It steers beautifully. (Well, as beautifully as this ancient design can steer.) I also have replaced the power steering pump and installed new fluid. Not related to the leak, just FYI.
Refer to this description with diagram - http://www.stangerssite.com/HowItWorksControlValve.html
So, my first question is, should I attempt to replace the spool valve seals once again this time honing the housing cylinder bore? Is there another method/trick to curing this leak myself? Or, is a rebuld the only way to eliminate it? I spoke with Dan at Nostalgic, and he'll rebuild it for $225. Problem is, getting the pittman arm off. There's no room to get a puller on it, and using a pickle fork has some risks.
Last question - if you have had your's rebuilt, how did you remove it, who rebuilt it, how much, and did it finally cure the leak?
Thanks for any/all info.
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Here's my situation - after installing the Turner brake kit (and shortening the wheel studs to accomodate the Borrani wire wheels), I have a slight amount of vertical wheel movement. I've readjusted the wheel bearings, made sure the knockoffs are tight, and yet the wheel can still be moved by grasping at the top and bottom and shaking it. Not much, but I'm not comfortable with any movement.
Does this indicate it's time to replace king pin bushings? It's a '77 with only 59K miles, very gently driven. I have greased the king pins and insured that grease came out of both the top and bottom. No improvement.
Appreciate any experiences with replacing/rebuilding king pins, entire front end suspension, etc.
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The second light is indeed an indicator that the auxiliary lights are on. My '77 has the original Cibie driving lights, and when the aux light switch is on the light on the right lights up. These are wired such that they can operate independently of the headlights, so presume that is the reason for the indicator.
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What is under the rubber bumper things -- sounds like they are bolted to the bumper?
The rubber is bonded to a metal backing plate that has a bolt extending through the bumper bar. Removing the nut behind the bumper allows you to withdraw the rubber thing easily. To cut it off so that it does not interfere with the chrome extensions means cutting through the rubber and the backing plate (fairly thin metal, so wasn't hard).
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Tim,
I have a '77 and mounted the chrome vertical bumper bars this way. I removed the rubber baby buggy bumpers and mounted the chrome vertical bars temporarily. Noting that the rubber bumpers were interferring with the vertical bars only about an inch or two at the bottom, I marked a line and proceeded to cut off that 2 inch section from the bottom of the rubber bumpers. Admitedly, this solution does permanently modify those rubber thingies, but as I want to eventually remove them anyway I didn't care. My rear bumper is in great shape so having the holes filled in and rechromed is a ways off.
Just wanted to give you another option. BTW - cutting the rubber bumpers with a hack saw was not that difficult and it's nearly impossible to tell when they are remounted on the car.
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Bob,
You can find more info on this thread by searching on the term "turns".
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Thanks for any additional info, Gman.
I know of two options - replace the bumper with a pre-1974 version, or have mine rechromed and the holes filled in. Given that the bumper is like new, I am hoping for a cheaper solution.
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Here's a question for anyone who has removed their rear bumper overriders (post '74 IIs I would say).
What did you use to fill in the hole in the bumper blade? The hole is in the center peak where the two curves intersect, so a flat bumper bolt won't work, nor will a flat plug.
Any ideas appreciated as I would love to ditch the ones on my '77, but when I removed them I discovered the need for something to fill in that hole!
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Has anyone put a center armrest in an AvII over the center emergency brake handle?
I was thinking of doing a removable one over the winter and just wanted a short cut if it had been done by others. Would like the extra storage and cupholding possibilities.
Thanks,
Paul
I have one in my '77. The original build sheet lists it as an option available from AMC. It is just a cushion covered in the same leather as the seats that sits on top of the console behind the emergency brake handle and makes an armrest. No provision for cupholders or storage.
There are aftermarket consoles called humphuggers. While they are not designed for an Avanti, they might give you some ideas.
http://www.classicconsoles.com/cgi-bin/eSh..._id=13697.10209
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I had read that the Avanti front end should be lubricated every 1,000 miles (gulp!). I did a complete lube job when I purchased the car last year and haven't driven it more than 500 miles since. Not sure when it had been last done, but getting grease to come out of the top of the kingpins required some, uh, tweaking with a BFH.
I hate any unwanted motion in the steering, so my inclination is to go ahead with the rebuild this winter while the car is hibernating in the garage. I have checked with the usual Avanti/Stude vendors as well as Kantor. As you say, Gunslinger, the folks are all great to deal with and there are various parts kits available, from a kingpin rebush only all the way to a complete front end.
I'll post some updates once I get into this.
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As detailed in an earlier post, I've installed the Turner brake upgrade kit on my '77. The kit came with new wheel bearings, rotors, etc. that all installed per instructions. The brakes are great, but no matter how much I tighten down the wheel bearings (to a reasonable point where the wheel still turns freely), I am getting a wobble when I mount the wheels. Note that the wobble is slight and only at the top and bottom of the mounted wheel (vertical orientation). There is no wobble when I grasp the tire on the right and left sides and shake it (horizontal orientation).
So, I am thinking the king pin bushings and/or other front end parts must be worn beyond acceptable tolerances. I have read that this rather archaic design is supposed to be very robust, and my car has only 58K miles on it, but something in the front end must be the cause of this wobble.
Any experiences with front-end rebuilds (parts, vendors, lessons learned) would be most welcome. Any other suggestions as to what might cure the wobblies equally welcome.
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Thought I should add a final note on this topic, having started it.
I bought and installed the brake kit from Turner. As others had said, this is a very well engineered and constructed kit with all parts needed for $650. During the installation I discovered a leaking grease seal on one wheel bearing which was the source of my original problem.
No matter, the end result is much improved and gloriously silent braking, easier future maintenance, and a happy owner.
Anyone need any stock Avanti brake parts? ;-)
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Following the shop manual and Wayne's advice, I dove into the brakes this weekend and here's what I found out FWIW -
First, there was a buildup of grease/dirt/gunk between the rotor and the dust shield. The previous owner had been rather generous when lubricating the front end, so I hope it was just some overflow that started this. I cleaned everything with spray brake cleaner paying special attention to the rotors.
Secondly, the calipers were not centered on the rotors. No telling how long this had existed, but I did at least find the spacers were still there. After several trial-and-error attempts, I got them within the .02" difference spec.
Third, the pads were defintely worn down, maybe 30% of the surface left compared to new ones. I obtained replacements from Advance Auto. They cross-referenced the part number to an early Datsun model that used the same Dunlop disks. And, well, they almost fit. They were just a smidgeon too wide, so I put on my Darth Vader respirator and ground off the edges enough to make them fit. They were identical otherwise, and retailed for $26 and no shipping cost.
The good news is that I now have excellent stopping power and the pulsing/grinding noise is gone.
The bad news is that I now have a depths-of-hell-banshee squeal from the new pads. I have bedded them in using the method of several low speed stops consecutively, and then some moderately high speed stops. They don't squeal at all in very light or very heavy applications, only in that middle area where you do 90% of your braking! Is there any value in anti-squeal stuff on the pads? Can I expect this to improve with use or do I need to think of turning the rotors now? They are original, 58K miles, and did not exhibit undue runout.
Oh, I did contact both Turner and Steeltech about their brake upgrade kits. Both seem to think their kits would work fine with my Borrani wire wheels. If all else fails, this would be my next move. Both use the Ford rotors and GM calipers, but Steeltech is about $100 cheaper. Anyone have experiences/comments about either?
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Good day,
I'm experiencing some front brake symptoms and would appreciate any information about dealing with the Avanti's Bendix version of Dunlop disk brake technology circa 1953.
When I apply the brakes, I feel a slight pulsing in the braking action. It's a bit like what I've felt before with warped rotors, but it's more aural than physical. I can hear it more than feel it. When I release the brake pedal it's as though the pads are not fully retracting and I can hear them rubbing/squeaking.
I've read Bob Johnstone's tips and it sounds like this is the classic case of the pads wearing unevenly. So, I plan to replace those immediately and I'll be inspecting everything carefully in the process. I have a shop manual and am aware of the procedure, but is there anything specifically that I should be looking for or replacing in addition to the pads?
I would prefer the Turner brake upgrade, but I'm not willing to give up my Borranis in the process.
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That's the system I have on my '81.
My 50K mile all original 77 is the same.
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I doubt the AC hoses would match those from any other car, as they must be customized for length, fittings, etc.
Here in Virginia, NAPA Auto Parts stores provides the service of making new hoses from the originals. I would expect a shop that specializes in AC repair to have that capability as well.
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George,
The writeup I posted about extending an Avanti's seat travel can easily be used to extend it forward toward the dash instead of backward toward the rear seat. The key is to reverse the direction of the cut metal pieces. I accidently did this when I was distracted by a phone call and the result is exactly what I think you are looking for - the normal seat travel in total distance is maintained, the seat is simply shifted forward relative to the pedals and steering wheel by the length of the cut metal strips. Re-read my post and where the directions say to mount the strips to the seat track with the extensions facing rearward, simply reverse that so the strips are facing forward. Everything else would be the same, with one exception. To raise the height you can simply put spacers (washers will work) between the seat track and the metal strips. When I bought my '77 the previous owner (who was about 5' 9") had done this. If I recall correctly, he had used three washers that raised the seat about 1 ". You just add more washers if you need more height. Also, by raising the seat relative to the track, you should not have to modify the seat track to clear the bolt head. Note that this procedure can be easily reversed and returned to stock configuration in about 15 minutes per seat.
I didn't stress this in my original post but should have - modifying a seat mount is DANGEROUS BUSINESS AND I AM NOT RECOMMENDING YOU DO IT. Should you choose to ignore that advice, be sure to use at least Grade 5 hardware and nuts with nylon inserts when doing this, and then make doubly sure that all bolts are very tight. In case of an accident, the seat's mounting to the car is all that prevents the internal launch sequence from being initiated.
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Just to add a note for the question on bias ply tires. I'm no tire expert, and I don't play one on tv, but everything I've ever read and my understanding of the physics involved strongly suggests that radials provide far superior straight-line tracking and steering stability over bias ply tires. Think of how the belts are oriented in bias plys (perpendicular to the direction of travel) versus radials (parallel to the direction of travel) for a basic rationale.
Comparing the Avanti to another 60s era car with bias ply tires that tracks straighter is not necessarily an apples-to-apples tire-only comparison. There are two other steering designs that are superior to the Avanti's bell-crank - (1) worm and roller, and (2) rack and pinion. Most American cars of the 60s through the 80s had worm and roller, mostly due to cost and Detroit's overall attitude of "if it sells, why improve it?". Rack and pinion is superior but more costly. If your other 60s era cars had either of these, much of the straight line stability is due to their inherent design improvements over bell-crank. You would also have to consider the condition of all related steering components involved on both cars.
You'll never overcome the limitations of the Avanti's design without totally replacing it. You can improve it by following the input in this thread, but I can't see bias ply tires as the silver bullet solution.
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Thanks, James, that is good info. I have a wandering '74 and have wondered about the steering box adjustment for some time. Where is that access hole? In the wheel well? And how do you know when you've tightened the adjusting screw enough, before loosening it 90 degrees?
Pete,
The access hole to the steering box is just right of center above the frame in the driver's wheel well. It's pretty obvious once you have the car on jackstands and the wheel removed. It may be covered with overspray from undercoating (mine was), but after scraping that off and shooting a little PB Blaster on the nut and the adjustement screw, they loosened up easily.
The adjustment of the box is simple in principle in that the more you tighten the screw the more you reduce the clearance of the sector gear and the more resistance you will feel in the steering wheel. However, if it's too tight you risk additional wear to the gear. I tightened mine until I felt resistance, then backed off the 90 degrees or 1/4 turn for peace of mind. Not sure if that's technically correct, you would need to measure gear preload to be absolutely sure. Probably close enough. I think it's a good idea to drive the car a bit following your last on-jackstands adjustment to make sure it's to your liking, then re-adjust accordingly if needed. If yours has never been adjusted, you may be suprised how many turns of the screw it takes to meet the point of resistance. Depending on the mileage and wear, I've actually heard of screws going all the way into the box! Not good!
Good luck with it, but be aware that tightening the box alone may not result in the improvement you are seeking. Rube Goldberg may not have been the original designer of Studebaker's steering, but one gets the impression he started with their covered wagon design and 'upgraded' it.
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Given the age of the design, it's no suprise that the Avanti's steering is a bit less than precise. It can be improved, however, and here are a few things that helped mine significantly:
- First, determine the condition of all steering parts. My car is a 58K mile 77 model, and still needed new tie
rod ends. These are easily replaced using a tie-rod puller that you can borrow from most parts stores.
- Lubricate the front end, paying special attention to the king pins upper joints to be sure new grease comes
out of them. I had to lightly hammer on the housings a bit while using the grease gun to get this to
occur.
- Adjust the steering box. Using the access hole in the body, loosen the lock nut and then use a screwdriver
to tighten the adjusting screw to reduce clearance on the sector gear. Back off ~90 degrees and tighten
the locknut. You should have the car on jackstands and the steering wheel pointed straight ahead when
performing this adjustment.
- Replace the steering arms with the ones developed for the 84 model. These are shorter than the stock
arms thereby effectively increasing the steering ratio. This may be the biggest improvement of all. The
arms cost about $100, and are pretty simple to replace. I had to use a propane torch to heat up the
housing and hammer out. Depending on time, rust, damage, etc. it can be more or less difficult. Steering
effort increases somewhat, but I personally like it.
- Get a quality front-end alignment. You may need to seek out a shop with some old timers, and
take the alignment specs with you (available here: http://www.studebaker-info.org/text3/avantiWAS.txt)
The net result is less turns of the wheel required to go where you want, noticably less wandering on center, and much improved steering feel. It will never be like a Porsche rack-and-pinion, but it's better.
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I did. I'm about 6' 2" and the seat simply did not go back far enough for me to get comfortable. Following Mr. Loewy's advice to never leave well enough alone, I decided to engineer a solution. Here's what I came up with.
I went to Home Depot and bought a flat bar of weldable steel about 1/4" thick and 2" wide by 24" long. I cut four sections out of it, each one 3" long. I drilled two holes 1/4 inch from each end large enough for a 5/16" bolt to go though. I removed the driver's seat, which is an easy job of removing four bolts from their captive nuts in the frame. Once the seat was out of the car, flip it over and see that the seat attaches to individual slider frames, one with a lock and one with a spring. Each one was held on by two bolts, which I removed. I then mounted the seat track to one end of the flat bar and mounted the other end to the seat itself, resulting in the seat being 2.5" further back relative to the track. I had to drill a hold in the seat track to clear the head of the inner bolt (one per side) but it didn't affect the track at all. To remount the seat in the car, I replace the two rear mounting bolts with studs so I could just mount a nut on them. Moving the seat back results in not being able to access the rear mounts easily, and takes some time to get the nuts on.
The end result is the 2.5" of additional legroom makes all the difference. I can now stretch out my right leg on the accelerator in comfort and leave the steering wheel in the lowered position. As a bonus, I now have more headroom as when the seat slides further back it is on an angle that increases.
If anyone is interested in doing this, contact me directly and I can give you more details.
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As promised, here is some info on the results of my ASC sunroof diagnosis.
The ASC sunroof can be opened manually by using a 'tool' supplied with the Avanti owner documentation. Mine was in the original yellow paper envelope and had never even been opened! You remove a plug in the motor housing, then a tension screw, and the tool fits in a slot. The previous owner told me that he had not opened it in several years due to it scratching the paint when he did. As a result, the old grease had the consistency of tar and it was very hard to open. My assistant manually pulled the sunroof back while I cranked the tool back and forth and it finally opened. This sunroof is very well engineered, given the fact that it's 30 years old. The motor turns against two cables, one of which is fixed and provides 'traction' depending on whether you are opening or closing. The cables are routed through stainless steel housings, which I have found to be an indication of the overall quality of manufacture of the Avanti. Removing the covers of the cables, I used PB Blaster to remove the old grease. I removed the motor from the housing and disassembled it. The resistance of the sunroof had caused a gear to slip on it's shaft where it should have been tight. I cleaned all the old grease out (an amazing amount was packed in there) and disassembled the motor. The gear is held on in a two-plane friction arrangement between two washers that compress on it. Kind of hard to explain, but the cure was to simply tighten down on the screw and the gear 'locked' in place. I used spray white lithium grease on the cables, and dilectric grease in the motor. Remounted the motor and the cable covers, and the sunroof now opens and closes properly. I found the reason for the scratching to be a buildup of fiberglass resin in two corners of the roof opening right where the sunroof disappears into it. I first tried to adjust the height of the sunroof. It slides on two guide rails along the top edge of the cable covers, and those rails are mounted to what appears to be an adjustment wheel inside the sunroof plastic cover. I could see them, but I was unable to get them to move. They may be locked in place somehow, but I decided not to mess with them and instead I filed down the two small ridges of fiberglass and the problem is resolved.
As for the leak, I found that grass trimmer line was an excellent tool for cleaning the drains. It's stiff enough to remove debris but very flexible and smooth. I could only access the ones in the front with the trimmer line, so I ran the line down both several times until no resistance could be felt and the length of line was long enough to satisfy me that was going all the way through. I poured water around the roof opening and it drained out through the hog troughs as designed (bad idea) and not inside the car, but the drain holes seem small and poorly placed such that a high volume of water from a car wash or a thunderstorm could easily overwhelm them.
Well, overall the operation was a success and the patient lives. It was 73 degrees here in Richmond on Saturday and it was gratifying to press a button and see the sun appear.
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Thanks for the welcome and the tips. I had reviewed Bob's info and learned a lot before I bought the Avanti. But, before it was mine, I was merely interested, now I'm committed to fixing it. This is my plan, anyone with any better ideas, please chime in:
Park the car on a slope first uphill and then down. Pour a small amount of water around the sunroof and try to see if the leaks are from the front drains or the rear.
Then park on the slope with left side up and see if it's left front or rear. Reverse and repeat for the right side.
Once I see where the leak is, crank open the sunroof manually and investigate. I presume the metal panel is at risk of not going low enough and scrapes on the roof, so will have to carefully watch that and then figure out what can be adjusted to fix it. Anybody ever adjust their ASC sunroof before?
I read the rear drains empty into the rear quarter panels, and presume the drain hoses are visible from below. Is that correct? I also read that the fronts drain into the hog troughs and are NOT accessible from below. If so, I'll try to clear the rears from below and the fronts from above, the later I also read is risky and can create more problems.
Oh well, it isn't like I'm not familiar with old toy car world. I've self-restored a '65 TR4a, '73 Mustang convertible, and '76 Porsche 911S, and learned that fixing these type of problems usually comes down to 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.
I'll post my results once completed.
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Well, the '77 Avanti II I asked about in an earlier post now sits in my garage. It is everything the owner claimed and a wonderful piece of rolling sculpture. However, it has a leaking ASC sunroof (metal panel) and the previous owner never opened it because it is misadjusted and might scratch the (admittedly perfect paint). I suspect the drain system is clogged or has some problem. To open it, I will try using the manual method and go slowly. My question is this - has anyone ever dealt with this problem, and would you have any helpful hints? Thanks in advance for anything useful.
Weeping Octopus
in 1965-83 Avanti
Posted
Well, that's pretty much the procedure that I followed the last time, Brad, but the leak returned in less than 2,500 miles of driving. So, I guess I can either keep replacing those seals, or bite the bullet and remove the control valve for a rebuild. If I do replace the seals again, I will hone the control valve housing just to be sure it's as smooth as possible. Something has to be causing the seals to deteriorate so quickly.