Nelson
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Posts posted by Nelson
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Makes sense.
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End toward the center?
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On 1/22/2023 at 9:52 AM, mfg said:
As an aside to this story...I was one of the motorhead 'kids' who went to my local newstand every month to purchase HRM, CAR LIFE, MOTOR TREND, etc....of course, I was thrilled to read the HRM road test of a Studebaker Avanti 'R3'!!
Anyway, the photos in the article were all in black & white, and for many, many years I thought the HRM Avanti was painted AVANTI RED...The black & white photos of the car simply 'looked' red to me...The fact the HRM Avanti was painted AVANTI TURQUOISE was a big surprise to me!
Ed, I used to think the same thing. I was certain the car was red with a black interior. I was talking with George Krem day before yesterday at a car show in Az and road test car came up in the conversation. He mentioned the anticipated color in his mind was red/black. I think the black and white photos misled us and the fact that you would think the factory would have authorized a hot looking color like red not the conservative turquoise.
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I’ll second that. On top of that he is an amazingly nice guy.
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Geoff. I’m sure tracking down info on your dad’s car won’t be easy. I have a tendency to believe the 1/8 stroker story as it would improve sprint times but that also makes the story of 8000 rpm less plausible. In looking through the archives I looked at a lot of Avantis but 1025 was not one of them. The fact that it was Andy’s or Vince’s Avanti is in itself impressive. If I run across anything I will share it with you.
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Well at least save the original block.
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Brad. I will be interesting to see what if any differences exist.
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The R4 is heavier by the weight difference in the pistons
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Yes, late 259 pr 289 full flow block. But if your Hawk is a matching number R2 id look for a reputable shop that does this kind of work and have it repaired.
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Mrs Granatelli, I believe it was Dolly, taking the Avanti to the grocery store was a tongue in cheek comment but I’m sure Vince or Andy did drive 1025 regularly. I don’t think 1016 was considered a daily driver.
The tach on the steering column sounds right for 1025 as Paxton sold those iI guess but if you look at the photos at Riverside there is a factory 8k tach in the dash not on the column.
Geoff, I’ve gone through every solid claim associated with 1025 as I wanted to be absolutely certain I was correct. Initially and very early on I thought the HRM and MT test car was 1016 based on a cursory look at it back in the 80’s. I commented on it back when 1025 started to make the claim to be the test car on this forum. The comments fell totally on deaf ears. I just let it go as I had no skin in the game and nothing to really go by other than my gut feel at he time. When I looked at 1016 in South Bend last year I bought the car five minutes after I looked under the hood. I’m no amateur when it comes to Paxton built cars and 1016 was obviously a Paxton built car. The car inspired a research project I hadn’t done in a long time. The fellow who bought 1025 actually guided me in the direction of the photo archives. He probably regrets that now and I feel bad about that but facts are facts and correct history is paramount. Even before the archives I could see a match up to the under hood scratches. I even looked at the orientation of the stripe on the heater hoses as 1016’s were still the originals. These even matches up to the test car. I just don’t understand how you can dispute what I’ve found as anything but concrete certainty. It isn’t here say it’s hard evidence and lots and lots of it.
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On 1/20/2023 at 4:41 PM, GeoffC312 said:
I'm confused about these claims for 1016. Why did Andy Granatelli say to my dad, "No, that was the one we stroked" when discussing RS1021 (the engine in 1025). Andy's reasoning behind the stroking being to give better low end power to loan out to magazines for testing at the drag strip.
That was the day's thinking. Big bore & short stroke was the 'spin it to the stratosphere' build for high rev power, so a longer stroke was thought to equate to a boost in the lower rev range.
My dad had a personal experience with the Paxton blower seizing, and it flipped the belts when he had it as a daily driver in the 1970s. Luckily nothing got ingested though artifacts made it into the pressure box but that's where they remained. Afterward he had the blower sent to Santa Monica for a rebuild.
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51 minutes ago, brad said:
Some of the Pre-production PROTOTYPES had R3 engines. It's not a late thing. It was an engineering exercise all along.
i know you have had some of the preproduction prototypes in your shop. Do they have B numbers or EX numbers on the block? The B would probably be a Paxton designation and the EX a South Bend engineering designation. Another piece to the puzzle.
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I’ve always wondered the significance of the A and B designation for the R3 and R4 engines. I’ve been thinking about this for years . I’ve asked the Granatellis with no luck at all. It dawned on me that the A engines were probably built in 1962 and probably were basically 299 engines with reworked standard cylinder heads. The B engines I originally thought were 304 with R3/4 cylinder heads until i found some B engines with 299 ci with the late cylinder heads. Then I remember the six cylinder Bonneville engines were also given B numbers. So my deduction would be all engines built in 1962 were simply A engines and are very few in number. All 1963 engines were B engines and so happened to have the new cylinder heads on the V8 and the six was assigned a B number because of the year. Paxton’s paperwork for expenditures were A for 1962 and B for 1963. This sounds reasonable to me. What do you think?
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They probably recommend a position for the ends but the end result would be all the ends pointed toward or away from the c/l.
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I didn’t notice the 1973. I’d have trouble talking about that except it probably had something to do with pollution control or safety?
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Didn’t they have trouble getting the tank in and out.
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Yes, Bob is a very special soul. He’s been great for our hobby, a super friend and I’m sure you will never find a better person. He is certainly in my everyday thoughts and prayers.
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I really doubt Andy related to his daily driver by “serial number 1025” but recognized the fact that your dad had a turquoise/turquoise automatic Avanti like he remembered back in the day. After twenty, thirty or forty years pass by a person’s memory can get pretty foggy. Andy pretty much embellished stories and back when I talked to him I noticed he would quiz me about my question in order to get the answer I was looking for. In a way he wanted a multiple choice. I think in 1025’s case he answered your dad’s questions as if your dad owned 1016 and even then he over embellished the answers.
I don’t know for certain that 1016 was delivered from Paxton to the first buyer with an R4. I can assume it was but then the R3 induction system leaves me scratching my head.The link up of 1016 to the Hot Rod and Motor Trend R3 tests is totally complete. The scratches or damage under the hood are very unique as you can see. All the under hood shots show this exact same unique damage and finally one photo shows the unique damage along with the body number in the same photo. I think that is very conclusive. If that’s not enough there is a lot more like tow bar brackets welded to the front bumper supports, damage in the air dam area etc. 1025 has R3 upper control arms and 1016 does not now or in the photos. The air cleaner configuration on 1025 is post production where as 1016 is preproduction and matches the road test photos.
In an issue of Popular Mechanics a zero to sixty time was done for two R2 Avantis. One was a four speed the other a power shift. The times would have been 6.7 seconds for both but the automatic would stumble initially which hurt its time. The magazine recognized this and said the automatic would have matched the four speed if it wasn’t for that initial hesitation. These times were the best I have seen recorded in a road test with the R2. My thought initially was these cars were 1016 and 1025 with worked over R2”s. This could be if the road test were early and done in California but probably not true if they were done in South Bend.
1025 was Andy’s personal everyday driver. I’m sure it performed well but I’m sure it wasn’t driven on the ragged edge for a road test then driven to the grocery store by Andy’s wife. Tow bar brackets were welded to 1016 for a reason.
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23 minutes ago, mfg said:
Isn't it amazing though, that the car even still exists??!!!!!!!
It really is amazing and the fact it’s never been repainted is also amazing. As I mentioned on the poster write up, all it’s battle scars are still there and each one has a story that could be told with enough research. That is very true with this car. If you compare the under hood damage of 1016 with the Hot Rod and Motor Trend road test photos the damage signature is identical on both cars. Even without a body number you know it is the same car. Hence the internal debate on just how far to go with a restoration.
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Geoff. Not sure where you get “ the fact it was a manual R4” ? Do you know aomething I don’t.?
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34 minutes ago, GeoffC312 said:
Or … not.
1016 was built as a 4-speed. I referenced Bob Johnstone’s page.
1025 was built as an automatic. Hot Rod Magazine tested an auto, they even went so far to print the gearbox’s ratios: 2.40, 1.47 & 1:1 if memory serves me.
You are correct on that. Paxton converted 1016 to a power shift. I would imagine they were concerned the four speed would have been breaking axles. Looking at the photographs the test car still had tapered axles. It also had standard upper control arms. This car still has the narrow brake pedal pad and the return spring under the dash for the clutch linkage. The car also had power steering which was removed during the R3 install. Take a look at the poster boards I published here. The production order etc. is there. You are correct, It definitely was built with a four speed transmission.
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Moisture? Or fumes driven through the gage with boost pressure?
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Axles
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Yep. But, one last shot…acoustically improved interior.
Avanti R4!
in Avanti Trivia
Posted
I have seen one factory photo of an R4 engine compartment but don’t know where I saw it….probably the museum archives. Anyway, I was talking with George Krem about that photo and he had also seen it and in fact may have a copy. He is looking for it and will send a copy to me when and if he finds it. I’ll publish it here if it arrives.
Are you certain it was one of the EX cars that got the R4 treatment? I speculated that it may have been 1016 since it had a R4 with the R3 setup when purchased from Paxton. Though it would make sense it was a South Bend engineering car.