GlennW
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Posts posted by GlennW
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I have not seen the show, but I have seen some reviews of it, which are generally not complementary. Most of the other people in the business of fixing and restoring cars around here do not have many good things to say about Mr. Short either, including the mechanic I take my car to when I need anything done I can't do myself. I live in Norfolk where Dan Short has his shop. I am looking to paint my Avanti, and redo the interior, so I went to see him for an estimate just a couple of months ago. I was not favorably impressed.
Mr. Short, certainly appeared very knowledgeable, and the shop had worked on Avantis before – I had seen one parked out in front on Hampton Blvd. where they sometimes display some of the completed vehicles they work on, and Mr. Short told me of a customer’s 1983 Avanti II they had worked on. I had toured the shop previously, and it certainly is large and well equipped, and the cars inside looked good, that is to say, the quality of the work looked good.
However, within minutes of Mr. Short beginning to inspect my car, he began saying things which troubled me. The first occurred when I told him I was simply taking the Avanti around at this point to various shops, to get estimates, have a look at the shops and take a look at the quality of their work, and so forth. The money I have coming to complete the paint and interior work will not actually be available to me until October (it’s prize money from a Jeopardy appearance -- you may have caught me on June 11 & 12 if you watch thge show -- and that’s when they’re going to pay me). Mr. Short then told me he couldn’t give me an estimate that far out. He said “this business changes so much. It’s not what it was eight months ago, and anything I told you now I just couldn’t depend on in October.”
Horse crap.
Is the cost of paint going to double or triple between March and October? Are you going to double your employees’ hourly rates between now and then? What factors, precisely, are going to change so much as to render an estimate on labor and materials worthless in just a little over half a year? Even a very rough, ballpark figure was impossible he told me. As I said: horse crap. What it was is he just decided I’m not a serious customer, or something to that effect, and he didn’t want to be bothered putting the time in to complete a proper estimate. Some of what he said made sense: to get a really good estimate, we’d have to sit down and hash out how extensive the work was going to be; am I replating the bumpers and polishing the stainless steel window trim; what pieces am I going to replace and what am I going to refurbish, etc. I get all that. But – and this is especially true if he’s worked on Avanti’s before – he most certainly could figure out the man hours of labor needed to strip the old paint, prep the fiberglass, and paint it, plus the cost of materials. And I wouldn’t mind at all him saying “but remember, that’s just labor and materials on the paint job alone, and leaves out a lot of stuff.” It at least gives me an idea whether or not the amount charged is fair, given the quality of the work. Likewise, he could figure the cost of labor and materials for reupholstering the interior the same way. The fact that he wouldn’t answer a simple question bothered me. I could even understand if he said “look, no offense, but it takes hours to sit down with you, and go over everything I need to give you a proper estimate, and I really just would rather not until you’re ready to bring it in. I have a business to run and my time’s valuable.” That would have been the honest answer. Instead he blew smoke up my ass.
The second thing he said which really bothered me came after I spoke of some parts I had acquired for the restoration. He said “if you’re going to bring it here, the first thing we’d ask is that you stop buying your own parts. After all, you don’t go into a restaurant and bring your own steak and ask them to heat it up for you.” Well, your pardon Mr. Short, but you’re not running a restaurant; you’re running an auto restoration shop. You’re comparing cheese and chalk. There are very good and logical reasons for my coming up with some of my own parts. Take just two, for example.
First, one of the beauties of owning an Avanti, is that after Studebaker stopped making them, Avanti motors continued to do so for over twenty more years (before they changed to making re-bodied Chevy El Caminos that looked like Avantis). During all that time, Avanti Motors engineered in certain improvements in order to comply with increasingly stringent federal safety regulations, things like seats with headrests for whiplash protection, or like three point safety belts. These things were factory engineered to meet these regulations, and I want these improvements in my car for better safety, since I’m making it a driver, not show car (and the beauty of it is that these are completely reversible, so they don’t hurt the car’s value). By tracking them down myself, I was able to locate a set of Recaro seats from a parted out Avanti II, as well as new rear seat armrests, that Avanti motors recontoured to eliminate the rear seat ashtrays, and conceal the reel for the three point safety belts for the driver and front seat passenger. These are not parts one can just ring up a vendor and order. They appear sporadically, when someone parts out an Avanti II, and you have to get them when you can, which I did. So why should I not provide these parts, and leave, as my only alternative, having Fantom Works butcher my floors to fit an aftermarket seat that was never made to go in the car? Why would I ever want to do that when I can put a set of Recaros from and Avanti II in that will bolt right onto the existing seat tracks, and can be taken back out to have the originals put back in if I ever sell the car? Why should I pay Fantom Works for all the extra man hours that would be needed for them to custom fabricate a new pair of armrests to do the same job of concealing the seat belt reel that the Avanti II parts I paid forty bucks for are already made to do?
The second problem I have with this rule is similar (limited availability), but different in one crucial way. The seats with headrests and the three point seat belts I could live without if I had to. I could leave the original equipment in. But some items cannot be dispensed with, such as new rubber seals for the windows. My old ones are dried out and cracked, and no longer provide an effective weather seal. The rear quarter window seals are simply not available anymore. Since about 2012, when the most recent maker of reproduction seals decided to stop making them, no new supplier has yet emerged, and right now there is no one you can simply call up and order from who can provide these very necessary replacement pieces. When I realized how scarce these things were getting, I managed to find a guy who had a couple of pairs left, and bought one. Who knows if you could even find these things at all now? Even if Mr. Short could, it would require a lot of calling and emailing on his part to track them down – and this is time he would charge me for. Doesn’t it make a lot more sense to let me, the vehicle owner, member of both the Studebaker Driver’s Club, and the Avanti Owners’ Association, to contact the various suppliers with whom I have dealt for years, or network with other club members who might have what I need?
Apparently not for Mr. Short, who doesn’t want me to do this, and says he will charge me a ten percent surcharge on any parts I provide myself. I have paid top dollar for some of the rarer parts, and I’m damned if I can see any good reason why I should be charged for them again by someone who had bugger all to do with either making them or finding them.
Finally, when I told Mr. Short I was looking at various shops, in order to see which one looked like the best to me, he told me I basically didn’t know what I was doing, and that I was going about deciding which shop to use the worst way possible. People don’t care for being told they are stupid, and I don’t like it any more than anyone else does. I have owned Avantis for ten years now, and have done lots of my own work repairing and maintaining them. I can realign the doors, change out the instruments in the dash, replace the gas tank, etc. etc.. I stripped all the paint and primer off my 1975 Avanti myself with a razor blade and an orbital sander. I actually have a really good idea of what I am doing, and what the work should cost, and I’m not necessarily going to go with the lowest quote I get. And I’m not about to just turn my car over to Fantom Works or any other shop without looking at the place, seeing their work, and what they charge for it, and comparing them with other places, after seeing the quality of their work and what they charge for it. Apparently Mr. Short just wants me to take his word for it that he’s the best in the business around here, and that’s supposed to be good enough for me. It isn’t. And now that I’ve talked to him, I’m even less inclined to bring my car to him.
Very well stated. Might be fun to print it out and send it to him (perhaps after you have somebody else do the work) so he can digest it when there's nobody around to strut in front of. Your points on parts are very well taken, it's not like you were insisting on dropping off your own tires, oil & filters for a one year old car for routine service..
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Are folks sure there were years with no gelcoat? Molding without gelcoat is brutal on the molds and the porosity one often gets on the surface of the finished part is such a pain in the butt to prep & prime over that any monetary savings on skipping the gelcoat at molding would surely be eaten up later with increased material & labor in the paint dept and decreased mold life.
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I'll say, "false" it had really ugly wide, skinny, rectangle headamp cover "windows" but I don't remember anything about being composite.
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True on the 'vette for sure. I remember reading about how folks who put down early deposits on Avantis got tire of waiting for the actual car and took their money back & bought Corvettes which cost about the same.
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Well, good news/bad news. Since the 8 pin connector including wire #28 is under the dash I was able to read the wire front to back with a 10' teast lead without taking anything apart, only to find it was fine, less than ½ohm for the length. Hit the brakes and the left brake light worked but the turnsignal function didn't. So much for skipping the Socratic Method and my previous, " at least it's not the directional switch" comment. Sure enough, standing on the brake and watching the images of the brake lights against a darked garage door I could make the left side go on/off by barely breathing on the steering column directional switch. Time to make a steering wheel puller and deal with the directional switch.
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The window crank handles aren't rare...the same part as other Studes of the period. It just shows how Studebaker used standard parts pin items as much as possible to save costs. New handles are available from Studebaker International for $39 each.
Thanks, I must've missed the window crank handles on SI's site when I looked up the $90 door latch ones. Was hoping there was a good swap in my future. Funny how they've been like that for over 30 years and now all of a sudden I get a bug up to replace them.
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I don't understand why the low beam has anything to do with the rear light being out. It could certainly be a bad ground wire for the light socket. Use a test light and see if the wire to the left rear is getting power. If it is, you've got either a bad ground to the socket or a bad bulb. The socket could also be dirty inside and the bulb contact isn't making contact.
On the drivers side of the console there's a channel molded into the fiberglass at the floor level where the wire bundle runs. It goes along the floor covered by the carpeting and up and under the rear seat cushion...again...under the carpeting. The base the seat cushion sits on is notched so the seat won't crush the wiring. The wiring then goes behind the seat back, up along the left side under the fuel filler hose into a tunnel that leads to the rear of the trunk. It also includes the antenna cable in that run of wires.
The terminal connector you mention, if it's the one leading from the turn signal switch, is located under the dash by the parking brake handle.
Thanks so much for the wire routing info, it'll save a lot of time next time I get a chance to dive into it. By low beam, I meant the running light element of the rear tail lamp. It's a shared ground so if the low works and the brake/turn doesn't you don't need to worry about the ground path. I've got the electrical skills, just needed to know how the wires were routed and I'm never too proud to save time by asking
I ran out & looked under the dash again and yeah, that's an 8-pin connector and the schematic only shows one. No biggie, I can go back to a pin through the wire and good old alligator leads on the meter. Thanks again.
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Are Avanti manual window crank handles a rare item? I haven't run across them for sale, but I've seen the door opening handles for $90. Why, you ask? 'cause I'm using a pair of window cranks as door latch handles
The car was like that when I bought it in '81 and altough I'm fine with it there's always the chance a passenger will accidently open the door thinking they're going to crank down the window. Anyway, I'm curious if the window cranks in great shape are something I put up for sale if they're hard to find or add them to "the box" when I finally get around to replace them. Thanks! -
Hi Folks, my left rear brake/signal beam is out, low beam is fine so it's not a problem with the shared ground. I have it (wire #28) up at the steering column so at least it's not the directional switch, but not inside the trunk at the lamp socket itself. The book schematic shows the wiring harness has an 8 terminal connector (using 7 of the terminals) somewhere between the trunk & directional switch. Anybody know offhand where they run the harness from the trunk (book shows down the middle of the car but not if it's inside or out, etc.) to the front and where that 8-pin connector is since it's be a perfect place to break the circuit in half with a meter. Thanks!
Avan-"tay"
in Avanti Pub
Posted
Having long ago given up on folks who say, "George Warshington" and "Calvary Charge" I'm afraid I don't care if someone clings to Avan-tay, 'specially if there's a y'all in the verbage also. I'm thrilled when I run into folks who just use complete sentences.