GlennW
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Posts posted by GlennW
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Ignoring the "survivor" thing, all I had to read was, "1980 Studebaker Avanti II" to know I shouldn't take any of the verbage too seriously
Looks like a nice car, hope somebody buys and enjoys it. Other than that, not much to say other than whatever it sells for will be of interest since it's always fun to see what one goes for. As time goes on and other cars are more more sought after than Avantis, I can't say it's a huge deal (to me) to have the original engine in anything but a '63-'64 car, but I don't know if that's a majority mindset. Forgive me perhaps for asking, but does it really matter what GM engine is in an Avanti? -
I agree, Paul, and it would be nice for those wishing to sell if all values rose, I suppose. Though a rising tides raises all boats the same amounts, a buddy of mine used to say, "a strong breeze lifts all kites" but the best kites with the most string will fly higher ☺ I don't know that the $78k R2 mentioned above will/would add even $1k to my R1's value, but it can't hurt. I do know mine is in better shape now than when I bought it around 30 years ago, and probably isn't worth as much now. If I subtract what I've put into it, and then add in licensing, insurance and storage fees, I probably owe the universe $20
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Thanks Paul. The Avanti is actually one of 10 cars (No 6) featured in “Now and Future Classics.”
Kinda, sorta. The article specifies the Studebaker Avanti R2, not the other Stude ones and various reincarnations. Even my lowly '64 R1 need not apply. When folks start talking Mustangs, who's thoughts fly to a Mustang II, or even the '79 or '94 remakes? Though a '95 'stang will blow away a '64 in virtually any metric, there will never be a line forming to bid on a pristine unrestored 1995 barn find the way there would be a 1964. Likewise the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th version Buick Rivieras. Forgive me if needed, but all Avantis were not created equal, any more than various Impalas. On top of that, I personally feel the endless attempts to revive the marque probably hurt the mystique of the name compared to where it would be if Newman & Altman had simply bought everything up to retail as spare parts to keep the 4600-something Stude-built Avantis on the road. Are the later Avantis better all around drivers, easier to get parts for and more comfy as daily drivers? Heck yeah, but I'm afraid the sought-after collectible classic ones will always be the Stude-R2/R3 ones. Seems every time I mention Avanti to a newbie, it always gets met with, "Those were supercharged, right?".
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Back in the early 1970's at the GM Corvette assembly plant in St. Louis, a supervisor wanted an LT-1 Corvette with a/c, which wasn't available with that engine at the time. He created paperwork to have one built like he wanted but wasn't listed as such in the legit paperwork. Once it was built, a higher supervisor who would normally pick a Corvette at random to drive home to test the quality control of what was going out the door just happened to pick that car.
When he started the car he immediately became alarmed when the oil pressure needle pegged out. An LT-1 used a 80 psi gauge...the standard Corvette used a 60 psi unit. He shut the car down and had it investigated. When the truth came out the supervisor who had the car built lost his job. The car sent back to be properly equipped with a lesser 350 engine.
If that one was caught by random chance...how many might have gotten out the door without being caught? Could the same thing have happened at Studebaker?
Ouch! That turned into one very expensive 'vette
I imagine it happened/happens everywhere. I know that back in the late '70s when electronic tunning car radios were just coming out, if you wanted one for your Jeep Wagoneer it was a $500 option at the dealer and $50 at one of the taverns across the street from the plant. -
Charlie, there are wax & non-wax resins. Short story is when you do fiberglass work that's exposed to open air, the exposed surface will remain tacky for quite a while which is a real pain if you're waiting to sand and finish it. If you're using a closed mold process like LRTM or RTM there's no problem. If you're doing free-form or open molding there are a few ways to have the surface cure nice & hard. You can spray it with Poly Vinyl Acetate (PVA) which is water based and peels off easily later like a bad sunburn, and any remainder washes up with a wet rag. You can also use the resin with wax in it for the final layer of fiberglass. The wax will migrate through the fabric and resin to form a layer on the outside surface that blocks air from the surface. That allows the resin to cure hard. "Back in the day" everybody had their secret recipe for wax/resin. Personally, I do not care for the wax as it means more cleanup afterwards and a better chance of surface hassles later. There's also a chance for entrapment if proper procedures aren't followed. I use PVA for anything I want to cure without tackiness.
I make motorcycle fairings, here's a master pattern for a Road King fairing front;
http://woodysfairings.com/images/plug3.jpg
and here I've carved it up and done a custom nose for my twin headlamp Fat Bob;
http://woodysfairings.com/images/plug5.jpg
Then I masked off the custom area and sprayed it with white gelcoat followed by PVA. The following day you can pull off the PVA;
http://woodysfairings.com/images/plug9.jpg
After that I simply washed it down with warm water and began the usual wetsanding progression from #220 to #1500, followed by buffing and sealing to make a mold from.
As for "repair vs replace" it really depends on how bad the damage is, are replacements readily available and affordable, do you have the skills & equipment to do the work, etc. There's no grit sandpaper that will save you if you put a body panel on cocked
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Thanks guys, appreciate the insight. FWIW the 2 ENG and everything else is all typed in the same on the PO sheet. That's a good point on no notes about "who's doing dealer prep?" but I have no idea if that would have been on the PO (or even needed) if it was destined for in-house delivery. I suppose that could have even been paper-clipped to the PO, or moot if whomever was receiving it in engineering already knew the plan. I have the vehicle inspection checkoff sheet and don't see anything to indicate any special stuff, only a ton of shoddy assembly details that had to be dealt with. The body sheet was dated 9/30/63, and the chassis sheet was 10/1/63 but I don't have anything to tell me when it was actually titled and on the road, so who knows if it sat in Engineering for 20 minutes or 20 days. Maybe I have a suspicious mind after living in Kenosha, WI where the Rambler/American Motors cars were built. I know of two Ramblers that were diverted off the line for "official reasons" and were never seen again (officially) after the paperwork went missing, too.
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Seeing a recent Production Order topic reminded me of a nagging question I've had regarding my own car, a '64 R1.
My PO's DESTINATION line shows SOUTH BEND INDIANA and the SHIP VIA one says 2 ENGR.
Anybody else have this on their PO sheet? I believe I'm the 4th (and 6th, but that's a different story) owner of the car, and the person who claimed to be the 2nd owner told me the original buyer was an engineer at Studebaker. Considering the car was ordered in mid September and the plant closed at the end of December, I've often wondered if he knew he'd be unemployed shortly and bought anyway, was oblivious/in denial and got taken by surprise, or even if some employees got really great deals near the end. Anybody else got 2 ENGR for a SHIP VIA?
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Like Gunslinger said, before tearing into the door it's way better to change out the breaker to confirm it's not opening up under normal rated current. The reality is probably that the actual window mechanism is in need of attention and has so much drag that the motor is drawing high current and popping the breaker. On the bright side-since it also does it while lowering the window, there's a good chance the window regulator spring is intact. Hopefully it's just the CB, good luck!
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Though Studebaker engineering was often on par with it's competitors, I'd guess in this case it had more to do with cost, convenience, etc. than anything else. As mentioned, by the time the exhaust exits the mufflers it has cooled and reduced in volume compared to when it first left the headers, so the slightly reduced final pipe diameter probably has no measurable affect at stock HP levels.
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Not sure where the advantage would be in replacing the entire roof section? If you did have a donor roof available it seems to me that it would be less hassle and better structurally to simply cut a replace piece to fill the void of removing the current moon roof. If no donor roof is available, a good boat repair place could do the fabrication. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems there'd be more body integrity filling a hole and leaving the rest of the original bodywork intact.
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...and to further wander off track - I keep seeing ads for Jay Leno's Garage premier on CNBC tonight and one of the cars shown is a Hawk, arguably the worst or best configuration of the original '53 coupe.
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'53 Lowey (Bourke) Coupe body style is what I remember, dunno exactly what model.
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Exactly! I lived across the Sound in Port Chester at the time, so it was pretty cool to me at the time to read about a car "made" nearby why drooling over the '63/'64 Avanti I saw every day on the way to school. (had round headlamps, so I don't know what year car it was)
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I recall reading decades back that Flemming was going to have Bond drive an Avanti for some reason, somewhere (instead of his Bentley) in his next book, but sadly he passed away before that. Anybody happen to recall a different, somewhat exotic Studebaker that Bond was a passenger in, during his visit to the US in one of the novels?
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thanks for the reply! although after 32 years one would like to think all the crap was done leaching, the safe bet will be to gel-coat the whole car and be happy.
Rather than gelcoat, I'd consider Dura Tec 2 part polyester primer. Sands great, self levels better than gelcoat and uses the same MEK family catalyst. Whenever I'm developing a plug (pattern) for a new mold from fiberglass, wood, foam, etc, the last coat(s) are the duratec. You can sand it from #60 to #400 wetsand, followed by sealer and release agent to make a mold right off of it. It's similarly excellent for over a fiberglass repair, where you block it and wetsand it down per usual and then paint it with whatever primer & finish coats you'd use over a gelcoat surface.
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Close, but there's actually two very basic reasons to have that layer of gelcoat applied to the mold - isolating the fiberglass cloth/strands from the outside surface of the part, and extending the mold's lifespan by providing a a smooth non-abrasive surface against the tooling gel of the mold. There's such a difference in demolding gel and non-gelcoated products that it's even a good practice to use different mold release products and application schedules with each. The gelcoat is a polyester product very similar to the resin used in the part's construction, but with important design differences. It's more flexible than ordinary resin and can have UV inhibitors built-in, and there's different hardness grades available to suit applications from bare use on aircraft parts to intention to be primed and painted. The gelcoat has to be allowed to set up to the point where you can leave a fingerprint on it but not smear it or move it around with gentle finger pressure. That's so when the part is made there's no contact between the glass itself (whether chopper strands, glass mat wetted or glass mat dry in LRTM molds) and the mold. Resin/Glass that's been formed right up against a mold will always require much more paint prep, as the outer surface will have porosity so tiny that even a heavy primer coat will end up with a zillion teeny bubbles popping up as it dries. As expensive as gelcoat is compared to paint, it's still cheaper and better in the long run to do gelcoat in the mold than the extra prep and materials needed later on a the finished part to paint it.
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A lot of usable parts there.
Yup, if somebody local had the room for it and will to part it out, they could make some money and help folks out. Hate to see these cars like that, but I understand it's hard to put $20k-$30k into something to build a car worth maybe half that depending on the market.
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Interesting poll, and '63 was a year with some seriously nice car choices. I had to go with the 'vette because I liked the '63 more than the '64, and exactly the opposite with the Avanti. That said, I love the original Riviera also, so it's really hard to make a choice like that in the first place. I'd probably be able to decide in seconds over current car offerings, with a hearty, "who cares, I'll throw a dart to vote" ☺
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It would be interesting to know if the author chose his words carefully, poorly or was just guessing. To be sure, there's no long line that I know of to buy any year Avanti in a big buck bidding war, but we could probably debate at length if the long line of failed "later Avanti" companies' offerings kept the '63-'64 ones from becoming rare and sought after i.e. pricey. Yes, the later cars were "more car" but depending on one's criteria I suppose the same could be said for a Mustang II. Like many early 60s cars, later bumper laws made every mfr make some styling changes and if Stude had stayed around, their Avanti would have been no exception. Anybody think a later model E-Type Jag ever looked better than the first ones with the original "useless" bumperettes and covered headlamps?
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I've been following this and I keep thinking, "why so worried about keeping it stock if you don't enjoy driving it that way?" If you change it in any meaningful way it'll never fool any judge who knows the stock criteria, and if you're concerned about the general public-who cares? The minute they see a GM engine in the bay, most folks are confused anyway. We have an annual classic car show every Saturday of Labor Day weekend, and the last few years there's been over 1000 cars. I'll drool when I see a cherry Nash Business Coupe or whatever and can't wait to peek under the hood. The minute I see a 350 crate motor in it, I'm bummed and start looking at other details. I wonder how many other folks do the same when they see the correct engine in a non-Stude year Avanti, because they think it's an aftermarket upgrade? Personally, I'd put the bucks into building up a nice replacement mill that'll give you the performance you want and save the original motor in proper storage, fogged and ready for selling the car to "the next guy".
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The 9 o'clock position SHOULD be wide open, but this can fool you if the counterweight has come loose from the shaft.......The internal plate may still be closed or almost closed.
If you drive your Avanti in mainly warm temperatures, I'd remove the heat riser completely like Rob Dudley did.
You may need to make up a spacer plate the thickness of the discarded heat riser though, or the front exhaust pipe will probably rub on the frame.
Thanks, most exploded drawings show movable objects in the "off" or "rest" state, so I was guessing 12:00 was cold but we all know guessing is seldom a good plan. The outer coil trying to rotate CCW backed that up, but not if the normal state was 9:00 and hot was 6:00, I've seen many a an drawing done by folks who weren't familiar with the whole assembly or late updates. We're 24 hours into a Sili-Kroil spray tube soaking, and I can move the weight back and forth a few degrees with great effort. The weight and shaft end sticking out of it are still bound as one so I'm going to leave it alone for now and give it a spray now & then. For sure, I'll make a spacer if I actually remove it, as I don't like changing any dimensions or flexing things that have been in one position for 50+ years ☺
I'm not really convinced it had anything to do with the stall out problem, but since it won't do that at the moment I have no problem to look for. Nothing ever fixes itself...
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Ran into a situation a while back where the car started & ran fine, then maybe 3-4 miles of city driving later it died and wouldn't restart as I coasted to the curb. Would restart after several aggressive floor stabs of the gas pedal prior to turning the key, but would only stay running with decent throttle. No backfiring or any signs of it being ign. related and the dist. isn't sloppy. Now of course, it won't do it. I can start it cold (leaving it parked) and it'll idle at high with the choke plate having set itself correctly with the usual pedal depress, and kick down easily with a quick throttle blip after I've let it idle a minute or so (it's 90° ambient right now). I mention all this only as background-while looking into things for anything obvious I noticed the #5316171 manifold heater appears to be immovable. The workshop manual shows the counterweight "lobe" at the 12 o clock position and mine's stuck at 9 oclock. Anyone recall what the hot & cold positions are? If 9 o clock is the "hot engine" position I'll leave it alone for now as it's a fair weather car anyway and I don't care if it's a little cold-blooded later. The coiled spring is secured to the outer weight, the weight just can't be moved by hand or by tapping on it with a 2' socket extension when at 180° operating temp. The white on the spring is just a paint pen mark I put on it cold. When at 180°F the outer coil of the spring had rotated counterclockwise maybe 1/16"~1/8", but the balance weight hadn't budged. Anyone remember if this at hot or cold? Thanks!
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In 1989 it towed Ron Hall's white 1963 R3 at Bonneville. TW March 1990, Vol.22, #3 page 11, lower left hand corner. There, now it's reference material instead of light-hearted trivia. Nothing to see here, move along
I guess I'll never understand what's wrong with "Light Hearted Trivia"!
I don't understand that either, of course I also don't understand why you and dapy snip and snipe at each other on this until it's no fun to come here any longer. I do know that when one argues with a clown, from a distance it always looks like two clowns arguing. No, I won't let it hit me in the ass on my way out
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In 1989 it towed Ron Hall's white 1963 R3 at Bonneville. TW March 1990, Vol.22, #3 page 11, lower left hand corner. There, now it's reference material instead of light-hearted trivia. Nothing to see here, move along
80 Avanti On Ebay
in 1965-83 Avanti
Posted · Edited by GlennW
Good point on the ebay listing situation, I did not know that. I wonder how many people looking for an Avanti don't care what year/maker/build they get? For sure the Avanti II is an interesting situation considering how many Studebaker parts (and people & build location) the first post-Studebaker Avantis had. For sure, you can't deny the legacy and hopes for the future the first II's had, compared to what we now know what the nameplate morphed into. I agree completely with your SBC explanation and probably should have worded my, "but does it really matter what GM engine is in an Avanti?" comment better, as I meant that relative to a authenticity/prospective buyer standpoint. Considering the car's overall weight, suspension design and age, etc. I can't imagine needing more power than is available from a good small block build, especially compared to my R1.